Vicipaedia:Taberna/Tabularium 16

Disputationes antiquae Hoc est tabularium antiquarum disputationum. Non est recensendum. Sententiae hic collectae inter dies 31 Decembris 2010 et 1 Aprilis 2011 scriptae sunt. ❮ Tabularium 15 Omnia tabularia Tabularium 17 ❯

LATINITAS

Dear Friends, I hope that you can understand what is written in this article of La Repubblica. Vaticano, a qualcuno non piace il latino. I sum up: Vatican City: somebody does not like the Latin language. The foundation Latinitas has been downgraded. Because of the loss of autonomy and money the certamen Latinum has been deleted. This is very strage if you think that the present Pope, Benedict XVI, has always spoken and acted in favour of the Latin language, Do you believe we (as users of vicipaedia) could/should organize something (a letter, a collection of signature etc.)?--Helveticus montanus 21:10, 30 Decembris 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it does indeed seem strange. Could there be some issue of Vatican politics underlying the apparent contradiction? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 22:22, 30 Decembris 2010 (UTC)

I do not find there much beyond MMIX: Latinitas (periodicum) --Alex1011 22:37, 30 Decembris 2010 (UTC)

Marinumbm operam meam simpliciter delevit

Salvete. Egomet intellexi, quare in re Iesu citatum textum meum Vulgatae delevisset, AT meum opus (sententia religionum diversarum) sine causa data delevit, necque possum eius mutationem abrogare. --Martinus Poeta Juvenis 19:26, 2 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Si abrogatio simplex impossibilis sit, possumus omnes textum perditum in versionibus "historicis" reperire et in versione currenti imponere. Id nunc feci, mi Martine. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:08, 2 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Gratias tibi ago permaximas, care Andrea. --Martinus Poeta Juvenis 14:07, 3 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Iesus – (Iesus) Christus

Forsitan melius esset (sicut vicipedia Anglica, Theodisca etc.) duas commentationes facere: Iesus (i.e. Iesus „historicus“) et Iesus Christus (i.e. Iesus tamquam figura fidei sive theologiae)? Nimirum magni laboris esset ...--Utilo 22:13, 2 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

paginae desideratae

As the special page Specialis:Paginae desideratae has not been refreshed for more than a year due to performance reasons, I have now created Vicipaedia:Dump/Paginae desideratae to serve as a replacement. --UV 22:38, 3 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

bots

For the record: I have asked our Vicipaedia:Grapheocrates to grant the bot flag to Usor:Mjbmrbot and Usor:WikitanvirBot, as they appear to do good work and make a large number of edits. --UV 23:08, 4 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Apples

Andreas: "I think this is a synonym for "Malus pumila". If I'm wrong, please just revert." ¶ Yes, they seem to be a mess, with articles on partially overlapping subjects. In the English wikipedia, the species-name "Malus domestica" redirects to "Apple," whose Vicipaedia version is Malum, but then Vicipaedia has the article Malus, referring to a genus, which doesn't recognize the species Malus domestica! The attempted distinction seems to be between the plant (Malus) and the fruit (Malum), but it's a tricky path to follow. :/ IacobusAmor 19:24, 6 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it's a cross-linguistic mess, as is evident from trying to follow inter-wiki links etc. My impression from sources that I think reliable (?) is that "Malus pumila" is now the preferred botanical name, not "Malus domestica". But these things change, and I could be out of date.

A while back I started Malus as the article about the botanical genus, and Malus pumila as the one about the botanical species (it could be moved to "Malus domestica" if that name is currently the botanical fashion). As you rightly say, Malum is about the fruit and I didn't touch it (so far as I remember). Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:29, 6 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

The sources I cited on the Malus page (notably ITIS, which I find pretty reliable) do seem to confirm that "Malus pumila" (not "Malus domestica") is the preferred botanical name. Some other wikis agree too, the French and Spanish for example: it looks to me as though en:wiki may be out of step. But I'm no botanist. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:46, 6 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Gradus (mensura)

In pagina Vicipaedia:Dump/Paginae desideratae est Gradus (mensura) cum 3066 nexibus. Estne utilis talis pagina? Habemus paginam discretivam Gradus ... - Forsitan Gradus (mensura) voce Gradus anguli permutanda est?--Utilo 20:04, 6 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Ita, redirectio Gradus (mensura) > Gradus anguli creanda est. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:09, 6 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Dictum factum.--Utilo 22:35, 6 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Biologia-stipula

Huic stipulae sunt 1545 paginae. Quis creabit plures formulas, fortasse pro ordinibus plantarum? IacobusAmor 17:31, 9 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Ask Usor:Robert.Baruch, perhaps? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:36, 10 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Translation of Bede

I'm working on the article on Bede in the en.wikipedia; current version is here. My Latin is very weak, and I have run into a source that quotes some Bede without translating; I wonder if anyone here would be willing to help? The Latin text is: "Quotidie namque et nova per reliquias eius aguntur, et vetera noviter ab his qui scire poterant indicantur. Ex quibus unum est quod in me ipso, sicut iam tibi dixi, per linguae curationem, dum miracula eius canerem, expertus sum." This appears in C.H. Whiting's "Life of Bede", in A.H. Thompson's Bede: His Life, Times and Writings. The text is apparently from Bede's preface to his own verse version of the life of St. Cuthbert; I haven't been able to locate a copy of an English translation. Any help would be much appreciated: I gather the text refers to the story of Bede being cured of a stutter by Cuthbert -- I'd like to include something about the story in the article but would like to understand the reference Whiting makes to this passage before I use it. Thanks -- Mike Christie 04:19, 10 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

That's right, there seems to be no English translation of the Metrical Life. Oddly enough I have a text of the Prose Life on my desk right now, but there's no passage precisely corresponding to this. Bede might have mentioned this cure of his in the 'miracles' section of the Prose Life, but, unless I've missed it, he doesn't.

I understand the text as follows: "... because every day new [miracles] are being effected by his relics, and old ones are being newly reported by those who have been able to learn of them. Among these [miracles] there is one that I experienced in my own self, as I have already told you, through the cure of my tongue/speech while I was singing about his miracles."

If others think I've got something wrong here, they will certainly intervene! "Lingua", as you'll know, can mean "tongue" or "speech", and I hardly know which word to choose in this context. Readers of our Taberna will notice the use of per + acc. here -- something we've been discussing recently! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:50, 10 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Thanks very much! That's exactly what I needed -- I appreciate it. Mike Christie 00:25, 11 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

De nomine urbis

Salvete! Ante omnia, mihi ignoscete propter latinitatem meam malam. Quaestionem habeo de urbis Medantae nomine. Haec urbs pluralia nomina latina habet nam haec nomina mediae aetatis latinitatis pertinent : Medanta, Medonta, Medunta. Verum nomen latinum "Meduanta" putatus est, vel "Meduantum", singularum ejus, sed nunquam scriptum est. Tunc quo nomine utamur oportet? Gratias ago. Medunta 20:00, 10 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Habemus fontem verum mediaevalem pro "Medanta" (sed sine dubio alii fontes aliter scribunt); habemus fontem interretialem pro "Medunta" (sed an haec pagina fons fidelis sit, nescimus). Igitur, pro tempore, "Medanta" accipimus. Tu quid dicis, et qua ratione? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:09, 10 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Ita loquor quia quidquid nomen medievalum cum cautione inspiciandum est, ut certe jam novis, et cum pluralia nomina urbi sint, quamquam "medunta" frequentior sit (fontes quos citas jam novi), ratio invenienda est. Haec nomina ab "meduantum" orta esse videntur, quod hanc vocalum variationem explicare potest, ut monstratur in fonte paginae francogallicae fr:Mantes-la-Jolie#Héraldique, étymologie et toponymie. "Mantes-la-Jolie" non sola urbs hujus nominis est, nam nomen "Mande-Saint-Étienne" a "Meduanta/um" quoque ortum esse videtur. Haec scripta sunt in libro "Les noms gaulois chez César et Hirtius De bello gallico" quem in interretiale invenire poteris. Tunc quod nomen eligere? Nomen medievalum (verum sed non unitum) aut (quod puto) classicum (unitum sed non historicum quamquam etymologicum)? Anglice vel francogallice explicare possum si quod dici barbarum videtur. Medunta 08:44, 11 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Etiam nomen fluminis "Mayenne" e "Meduana" ortum est, cuius "u" ablati esse potest. Ita bis habemus "Meduan-" => "Medan-". Puto hoc esse relationem phoneticam. Cum Meduana nomen fluvii sit, a Romanis scriptum est, item nomen oppidi "Mande-Saint-Étienne" fuit "Meduantum" (habemus fontem verum) tempore Iulii Caesaris. Illo tempore oppidum "Mantes" nondum exstabat, sed idem nomen quam "Mande-Saint-Étienne" esse arbitror. Medunta 13:33, 12 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Nobis necesse est fontes de nomine huius urbis citare (reconstructiones etymologicae pro nominibus paginarum Vicipaedianarum non suadent). Fonte "fideli" orthographiae Medunta pro hac urbe citato, libenter potes paginam movere. (Ut videbis, licet novis editoribus post quattuor dies paginas movere.) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:14, 12 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Explicationes tuae mihi sufficiunt : Servamus nomen "Medanta". Me cogito autem in pagina additurum nominis explicationem esse (cum fonte). Gratias tibi, vale! Medunta 20:23, 12 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Dog Latin?

Celebrantes sumus anniversario decimo Vicipaedia. Vis accedam? Qua lingua scriptum est? Nonne melius: Celebramus anniversarium decimum Vicipaediae. Accedere visne? Gabriel Svoboda 13:25, 13 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Recte monebas, amice, quod grammatica est falsa. Fortasse melius "Decimum festum diem anniversarium celebramus"? IacobusAmor 14:32, 13 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Somerset

Oppidane nobis movenda sunt si nomen Latinum attestatum habent? --Alex1011 21:20, 13 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Pro certo (si in fontibus publicatis aut "fidelibus" reperimus). Gratias ago ob nomen Dunestorum castri repertum, et iam movi! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:56, 13 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Translatio hebdomadis: License compatibility

I put there "concordabilitas licentiarum" (concordabilitas, cf. Raimundus Lullus: Liber de novis fallaciis). Now I've found some "rather old" attestations for "compatibilitas". Kompatibilitaet: [1], Leibniz: [2], Online Latin-Hungarian Dictionary: [3], Compatibilitas fidei: [4], incompatibilitas: [5]. Which do you think is the better word to be used? Or should the term be translated in a different way?--Utilo 16:06, 14 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

incertitudini linguae britannicae evitando venia vel comprobatio licentiarum propono

an "congruentia licentiarum"?--Utilo 21:56, 15 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Classically, compatibilitas seems not to be a word, and licentia = 'freedom, leave, liberty', but often 'licentiousness'. Secundum Ainsworth's, 'a license' (= 'a permit') est privilegium, et 'compatibility' est habilis rerum inter se conciliatio. 'Incompatibility' = repugnantia. IacobusAmor 22:30, 15 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Of course, neither concordabilitas nor compatibilitas are ancient words (let alone classic!). I would like to avoid them if possible. But we have to express the modern concept of "License compatibility" in Latin. Habilis rerum inter se conciliatio might be quite a precise paraphrase, but it is sooooo long! I am not certain, wether "licentia" is an adequate translation; on the other hand, license (< licentia) in all languages I know is used to express the given idea. By the way, also in English (or Italian ...) license (licenza) has many meanings, among others "licentiousness". "Privilegium" traditionally is something granted to single persons in contrast to others; in my eyes "license" rather is a permission or even more a contract between the copyright-holder and the user.--Utilo 23:11, 15 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

We have numerous attestations in books & prints published cum privilegio regis 'by the king's license', and cum privilegio regiae maiestatis 'by license of his royal majesty', and merely cum privilegio 'by license'. IacobusAmor 13:05, 16 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that we should put classicality above practicality when classicality is not necessary.--RayquazaDialgaWeird2210 03:37, 16 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Well, we customarily go for classical Latin when possible; but it may not be possible. Anyway, for concept A I like Utilo's briefer suggestion, "congruentia" ("concordia" could be an alternative, but "congruentia" is probably better). For concept B, I could live with "licentiarum". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:23, 16 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

I've just seen IacobusAmor's attestations: What about "congruentia privilegiorum" ?--Utilo 13:43, 16 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Yes, makes me happy. Iacobus is quite right: "privilegium" was used historically in this subject area. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:16, 16 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

I’ve done some more reading about privilegium and licentia and I am no longer happy about congruentia privilegiorum. In the article Ius privilegium ist defined "lex specialis pro homine quodam vel contra eum" (taken from Roman law). In medieval times privilegium is strongly attached to feudalism, afterwards privilegium is something "gratis datum" sive "gratia datum" by a sovereign or a state. In books "cum privilegio regis" and "cum privilegio regiae maiestatis" seems to mean rather monopoly than licence (in modern sense): The sovereign protects one printer against all the others threatening them to be punished if publishing unauthorized editions. In modern context privilegium is clearly an out-dated term – even the CIC from 1983 pushed it back, though Roman Catholic Church still is a kind of monarchy. - So I would like to move congruentia privilegiorum to congruentia licentiarum. (By the way: Also "licentia" has been a legal term in Canonical Law for centuries!). - I think we also should write or amend articles on: privilegium, licentia, litterae patentes, concessio, ius auctoris, proprietas intellectualis and monopolium. If no one else in this forum is keen to to that I'll try to do it (within some weeks)--Utilo 16:47, 20 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Maassluisia

Pagina creavit heri, Maassluisia, nondum stipula est. Paginam melior facere, volo addere nexūs externos, sed pagina Maassluisiae Anglicae non multos nexūs habet. Fortasse non multi nexūs pagina Latina Maassluisia habebit, aut res Maassluisiae petere mihi debet? Gratias vobis ago

Yesterday, I created the article Latin article Maassluis, which is not yeat a stub. To make the page better, I want to add external links and sources, but the English article for Maassluis does not have many external links. Perhaps the Latin article for Maassluis will not have many external links, or should I, myself, search for things about Maassluis? Thank you all --RayquazaDialgaWeird2210 03:32, 16 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I suggest you look for external links. They can be in any relevant language.

The other missing essential is that the name "Maassluisia" has to be justified with a citation. We don't invent place-names. So, if you find no citation for Maassluisia as a Latin name, the page will get moved to Maassluis. (That name would need no citation because the interwiki links show that it is correct.) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:30, 16 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Discus Rarus

Quis scit, quid sit "Discus Rarus" (cf. Vicipaedia:Dump/Paginae desideratae, Nr. 12) ubique in Vicipedia inveniatur?--Utilo 16:57, 18 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Specialis:Nexus_ad_paginam/Discus_Rarus --Alex1011 22:57, 18 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Inveniri potest hac in formula: Formula:Systema solare nostrum --Alex1011 23:05, 18 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

en:scattered disk --Alex1011 09:01, 19 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Gratias tibi ago. - Non est verbum Latinum attestatum, ut suspicor, pro "scattered disk (disc)". Quid de "Corpora (sive: res??) Ultraneptuniana dispersa"? Cf. Categoriam eiusdem nominis. - Etiam verbum "obiectum" pro "re" sive "corpore" - ut in OZK (Obiecta zonae Kuiperi) - minus apte adhibitum esse videtur. Nonne melius de rebus sive corporibus zonae Kuiperi scribamus?--Utilo 17:51, 19 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

nexus "Corpora transneptuniana" (et etiam interwiki huius nominis) ad OZK ducit: OZK autem sunt tantum pars Corporum transneptunianorum (sive ultraneptunianorum) sicut et Corpora Ultraneptuniana dispersa et Nubis Oortensis. - Quid melius esse videtur, ultraneptunianus an transneptunianus?--Utilo 17:58, 20 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Modo vidi: Est etiam pagina desiderata "Corpora Ultraneptuniana" (cf. 90377 Sedna--Utilo 18:07, 20 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Latin Pop

Oh, gosh, I don't know Latin as well as I should, and it's at night, and I really can't give the effort to write in Latin. Really sorry. My page, Musica popularis Latina, is really bad. It has no internal or external links, it has no descriptiveness, and it is just too overwhelming for me to do on my own. The page needs help! NB: This page is the Latin version of: Latin Pop. Also, I think it was suggested to me that my grammar on that was bad, and that's one of the reasons I didn't bother to write this in Latin. But I have a change of heart. I'll try my hardest!

O, non cogitare Latine bene ut debitus est mihi, et nocte est, et valde non iam possum laborem dare Latine scribere. (Non necesse erat mihi scribere, sed volo reddere Latine). Pagina meus,Musica popularis Latina, valde malus est. Non nexūs externi aut interni habet, verbae non cum arte scribebantur ab mē. Mē opprimebit si paginam aedificere solus. Auxilium pagina necesse est habere! NB: Haec pagina est illa pagina Latine: Latin Pop. Plus, me dictus est Latina meus malus est. Quam ob causa non Latina prius constitui. non scribere.--RayquazaDialgaWeird2210 03:01, 20 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

49 000

Si recte numeravi, pagina no. 49,000 est Heliotropium a Iacobo nuper incepta! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:16, 20 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Woohoo! Flores gaudent! IacobusAmor 13:29, 2 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Accentus vocis "favoritus" ubi est?

Salve! Potestis mihi dicere accentus verbis "favoritus, -a, -um" ubi est? Gratias vobis ago. --El Mexicano 09:29, 22 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Favoritus non est verbum Latinum classicum. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:39, 22 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

OK, then how do you say favo(u)rite in Latin? --El Mexicano 11:36, 22 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

It'll depend on the context, but "carissimus" and "gratissimus" are useful words to try. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:50, 22 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Maximas gratias. --El Mexicano 13:24, 22 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Secundum Cassell's: carus, gratiosus, gratus, acceptus. IacobusAmor 15:14, 22 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Hispania Romana

Hispania Romana deleta esse videtur, sed varie nexus ad hanc paginam inveniuntur (Hispania, Historia Hispanica). Quid faciendum est?--Utilo 14:04, 23 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Nunquam exstitit, praeter unum verbum "vandalicum", et ob hanc rationem deletum. Si vis, potes paginam incipere! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:13, 23 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

De voce "locutores" linguarum in articulis Vicipaedianis

Nonne melius et Latinius esset scribere "loquentes" pro "locutores," quae vox aut postclassica est aut aliud refert. Hoc mutare conatus sum in articulo de nescio qua lingua Finnica sed methodum qua perhibeatur non inveni. Ut apparet, est signum "fabulantes" quod ope viciprogrammatis expanditur in vocabulum "locutores." Si magistratus mihi assentiuntur de hac re, necesse erit valorem illius "fabulantes" immutare.

Praemium Utiloni daturum

Salvete omnes. Videte amici Propositionem praemii Utiloni nostro, et suffragate!--Xaverius 19:55, 26 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Certamen mundanum Manufoll-?

Salvete omnes. Vobis quaero, quod nomen optimum Latinum esse pro de:Handball-Weltmeisterschaft. Certamen mundanum manufollicum, Certamen mundanum manufolliense, Certamen mundanum mascullinum manufollii aut versio alia? Gratias ago permultas!--Xaverius 22:46, 28 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Equidem dixerim aut Certamen de principatu mundano manufollii (masculini, feminini) aut Certamen pro principatu mundano manufollii (masculini, feminini) aut – quamquam genetivum genetivo addere taedet – Certamen mundani principatús manufollii (masculini, feminini). Pro principatu etiam primatu uti possimus. Utique non egemus adiectivo "manufollico, manufolliensi" vel sim. Neander 23:28, 28 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Gratias, Neander. --Xaverius 13:22, 29 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Albertus VI / Albertus VI (archidux Austriae)

I've just made a mistake: I started the page Albertus VI (archidux Austriae) without realising, that there is already Albertus VI. Please, could somebody clean up! Thank you.--Utilo 22:31, 30 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

I put a redirect. --Alex1011 23:24, 30 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Apostrophes

If anyone wants to comment about what kind of apostrophes should be used in headings (e.g. the simple apostrophe in J'accuse versus the curved apostrophe J’accuse) please add a comment at Disputatio Usoris:Mattie. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:49, 2 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Nary a clue about grammar

What's to be done about the anonymous person whose every new page lowers the quality of Vicipaedia? Since his/her IP changes continually, he/she presumably isn't blockable. Will the magistrates look into this? IacobusAmor 18:49, 3 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

I've notcied this, but I have no clue about what to do. He is a person from Mexico, and I do not think we can block all the IP's from a single city. Unless we write him an email, I do not know what to do... but can we write emails to unidentified IPs?--Xaverius 19:45, 3 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything we can do unless

1. We mark such additions as "Latinitas -6" or "non stipula" -- in which case they will be deleted, by regular process, unless someone improves them; or
2. We take the drastic step of not allowing unregistered users to create new articles. This is possible (en:wiki does it) but personally I think it would be very unwise: we get many useful articles from IPs.

Option 1 is perfectly simple, and I recommend it. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:03, 3 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

I think a steward or programmer can block a range of IP addresses, eg. everyone from guadalajara, from editing unless they create an account. I think some of the wikis including en do it to stop ip abuse, it is not all ip users that are blocked at en.--123.192.64.184 04:36, 4 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

If you are replying to my point, you misunderstand it. It is a fact (unless something has changed recently) that IP users cannot create articles at en:wiki. They can edit but they can't create. They introduced this rule after the Seigenthaler controversy.

As to blocking users from a certain city, that was discussed at length at en:wiki, a while ago, as a way of stopping a certain pestilential vandal from somewhere in the southern US states. It wasn't done at that stage, but I think it was done briefly to stymie someone that the wiki cabal (which doesn't exist) disliked. I have more details somewhere but they are very boring. So, yes, I guess it could be done. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:12, 4 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

At least until we find a way to contact this person!--Xaverius 10:15, 4 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

I say it could be done, but, for the record, I don't think it should be done. Nor do I think we should remove the right of IPs to create articles, although that could be done as well. In my view, we have a solution. We delete pages that are marked as being of unacceptable Latinity or below stub quality. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:48, 4 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

With that solution, the anonymous person is veritably forcing people who care about Vicipaedia's quality to spend time that they'd more happily be spending otherwise. IacobusAmor 14:54, 4 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

And there is no guarantee that the IP will notice that his pages are being flagged and deleted. He does not notice the changes in the pages he creates, it seems.--Xaverius 19:12, 4 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Actually, he might have noticed a change or two and improved as a result, but what baffles the most is the combination of (1) nearly complete ignorance of grammar and (2) persistence in adding one-sentence (if you can call them sentences) articles! IacobusAmor

I offer no guarantees. Try it and see?

Anyway, is Convolvulaceae one of these? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:36, 4 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps; 200.56.177.60 id scripsit. Hodie, 189.196.58.204 nobis dat: "Magnoliaceae est [!] familia plantarun [!] florentium Magnolialium ordinis qui [!] specierum [!] Magnolia [!] pertinet." IacobusAmor 18:17, 5 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Et nunc, 200.92.118.195 nobis offert: "Magnoliales est [sic] ordo plantarun [sic] florentium"—seemingly falling into Helveticus's error (see comitatus above) of adopting & reduplicating a faulty template (plantarun). Maybe it's time to block the whole city for a while and see what happens. IacobusAmor 18:22, 5 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Hodie, noster amicus est 200.92.126.39, et sua sententia est "Plantago est genus species plantarum florentium Plantaginacearum familiae." Genus est species! IacobusAmor 18:29, 7 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Mulieres

My anthropology professor just shared this article, which you might find interesting: Where are the Women in Wikipedia (Anglice). Quot mulieres sunt in Vicipaedia? --SECUNDUS ZEPHYRUS 19:02, 3 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Now, that was curious... although of course, apart from Amphitrite, we do not seem to have that many other regular women contributors...--Xaverius 19:52, 3 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

It is interesting, and I think in broad terms it's true; although (as is said in that debate) we don't always know. I feel there's truth in the observation that many people, and in particular many women, find the tone of Wiki talk page debate combative and threatening. Well, we have good contributors who stay anonymous, and good contributors who never comment on talk pages, and both of those things are fine. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:40, 4 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

"Combative and threatening"? Hardly, by the standards of most of the web! I'm female, minimally active I guess, but also aggressively recommending (even assigning) Vicipaedia to my students -- it's never occurred to me that this was a "boys' club"! --A. Mahoney 19:52, 16 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Pagina non est situs

Would people try to remember that a page is not a site? IacobusAmor 14:22, 4 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

What stirred this thought? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:27, 4 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

People often call a situs a pagina, but a page is a subset of a site: a site may have many pages. To give a link to a site and call it a page is problematic, except when the site consists of only one page. IacobusAmor 14:48, 4 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Auxilium peto

Ooopss in 435 paginis scripsi in hoc comitatus et non in hoc comitatu et De hac comitato et non De hoc comitatu. Est bot quod errores meos corrigere potest?Helveticus montanus 19:02, 4 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

UVbot has now corrected 402 pages. In a few days, after the next update of the search index, we can use Specialis:Search/comitato to find remaining pages that need to be corrected. --UV 01:13, 5 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Domu?

Helvetice, cur domu (casu ablativo) scribebas, contra domi (casu locativo)? IacobusAmor 11:52, 5 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Coordinata

Is it useful to include the coordinates template regularly on our pages about places? I think it probably is. It links to the wikimedia toolserver utility "GeoHack", which offers lots of links to maps and geographical information from many sources. If others agree that this is useful, there are two supplementary questions.

1. Where on the page to put this information? It can simply be included among external links -- as it is on four Vicipaedia pages on which it currently appears: see e.g. Westport (Wiltonia) which I prepared earlier. Or it can be put at the extreme top right of the page, as is done on en:wiki: see e.g. en:Westport, Wiltshire which I also created earlier. Which is preferable?
2. If we agree it's desirable, can the coord template be placed on our existing geographical pages by a bot? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:27, 5 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

I think coordinates would make a useful addition to our pages. Coordinates are the kind of basic information you expect an encyclopaedia to have, you know? As for the placement, I think it should be as accessible as possible, so I'm voting for the top-right corner. I mean, if you were to go on Wikipedia looking only for coordinates, you wouldn't want to scroll to the external links every time. And it'd be better if people actually knew we had them in the first place, which they probably wouldn't if the coordinates were 'hidden' among the external links. (Perhaps I'm biased, though, as I rarely ever look through the links...) — Mattie 17:56, 5 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Mattie. IacobusAmor 17:44, 8 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to both. That's fine by me. I have asked UV for comments too. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:18, 9 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Of course coordinates would provide useful information, so in principle I would welcome the addition of coordinates to our articles.

Some thoughts on this:

• We might try to settle beforehand on a standard way of which wikitext/template(s) we would like to use to add coordinates to articles (we currently have not only {{Coord}} but also {{Coor dm}} and {{Coor dms}}, which is currently used on more than 1200 pages; furthermore there is de:Template:Coordinate which claims to be better than en:Template:Coord) and we should settle on where and how the coordinates should appear in the page (there is not just the possibility of adding a link to "geohack" but we might as well include OpenStreetMap maps in our pages, see de:Hilfe:OpenStreetMap/en). I personally never cared much about coordinates so I have no particular views on what should be our preferred solution.
• The subject of an article is rarely confined to a point in the mathematical sense. Cities have a certain geographical extent, and even buildings and monuments cover a certain area. The en:University of Duisburg-Essen has no statutory seat (!) and spreads over the cities of Thuiscoburgum and Assindia (I wonder where the coordinates in the English article on the university actually point to). Surely other wikipedias have already worked out solutions to these problems. Where should the coordinates in the article on res publica Africa Australis point to – Praetoria, the seat of executive power, Bloemfontein, the seat of judiciary power, Civitas Capitis, the seat of legislative power, or the en:centroid of the country's shape (which might be difficult to calculate, and it might actually lie in a different country!)?
• Yes, in principle a bot could be programmed that adds coordinate information from other wikipedias. However, I/UVbot cannot, and a bot would not be able to check the accuracy of the coordinate information it adds to our pages.

Greetings, --UV 21:16, 9 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Food for thought as usual. I hadn't noticed that a coordinate template was included in those big city infoboxes -- I thought I was talking about 4 pages with existing coordinate templates, not 1200! And, no, I don't know what is done on other wikis to fix coordinates for large areas and scattered entities: I had better try to find out, I think ... Thanks, UV. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:56, 9 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Mezzosoprano - Medius supranus?

Estne vox Latina pro "mezzo soprano"?--Utilo 23:37, 5 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Fortasse! IacobusAmor 17:44, 8 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

De nominibus hominibus

Salve, amici! Cur in Vicipaedia nomina hominum traducuntur? Verbi gratia, "Barack Obama" est "Barack Obama" in lingua Hispanica, sed quoque in Anglica, Gallica et ceterae linguae. Autem in Vicipaedia Latina pagina appellatur "Baracus Obama". Etiam in Iosephus Ludovicus Rodriguez Zapatero, Georgius Bush aut Gordonus Brown. Ego scio quem nomen hominum declinandos in lingua Latina, sed num gravior quam respicere verum nominum personae est? Furti 18:47, 6 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Amice Furti, bene iam dixisti: in lingua Latina nomina declinari oportet, quia lingua Latina casus habet, et per casus multa facit quae aliae linguae (ut Italiana, Anglica, Francogallica) per praepositiones faciunt. Nisi Latine declinaremus, quomodo ad exemplum diceremus George Bush's son? Num dicere possumus "George Bush filius" (ubi 'George' ipse filius esse videtur), vel "Filius de George Bush"? Quamquam, amice, nomina non Latina declinare non est tantum usus noster hodiernus: René Descartes iam suo tempore appellabatur "Cartesius" (-i, m.), et in tumulo philosophi Blasii Pascalis (mortuus anno 1662), legere possumus "Nobilissimi Scutarii Blasii Pascalis Tumulus".--Poecus 19:30, 6 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Categoria:Compositores theatri lyrici

The general, catch-all term should probably be Compositores operarum. "Lyric theater" refers to a subset of operas, not to all of them: many who composed operas didn't compose lyric theater pieces. Most of the composers with which the category of lyric-theater composers has been populated probably don't belong there. For details on the genres of opera, see Index generum operarum, in progressu. Is theatrum lyricum a calque from the French? See en:Theatre lyrique. IacobusAmor 17:44, 8 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Categoria:Opera is currently a mess of operas sensu proprio on the one hand and of artistic works in general on the other hand. How should we best distinguish these two concepts? --UV 22:47, 8 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

I gather that Iacobus prefers to use the term "opera" for what is called opera in English (and some other languages): if so -- and I agree it's a good and useful term -- then it's necessary to move most of the current contents of "Categoria:Opera" (which was up to now a supercategory for works of human skill and art, plural of "Opus") and choose a different term. What term would that be? One could say "Opera ingenii humani" or one could look for a different word entirely. I would support any such move. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:54, 9 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Gadgets

Pardon my English, but the gadgets in the preferences seem to have stopped working - in case it matters, I use the replace-U-with-V, replace-J-with-I and smallcaps. Kennercat 01:19, 9 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Hello Kennercat, please try again, gadgets currently work for me.

The upgrade of the MediaWiki software from version 1.16wmf4 to version 1.17wmf1 (see Specialis:Version and en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2011-02-07/Technology report#MediaWiki 1.17 deployment imminent) was scheduled to take place yesterday but was postponed due to problems. When this upgrade takes place, it might break gadgets again – let's wait and see ;-( --UV 20:17, 9 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Ah, seems to have been a problem on my end. I had to reinstall Firefox for unrelated reasons, and now they appear to work again. Kennercat 04:57, 17 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Actually, while I'm here, I should probably note that the ligaturas monstrare gadget, whenever I select it and save my preferences, deselects itself. Kennercat 05:05, 17 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this was broken. It should now be fixed. Thanks for reporting this bug! --UV 23:09, 17 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Anglice "family tree"

Quid est vocabulum Latine? --Nathan M. Swan 02:49, 10 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Secundum Cassell's, stemma, -atis, n. (apud Senecam et Iuvenalem). IacobusAmor 03:54, 10 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Ac Morgan stirps, linea, index maiorum dat. — Mattie 03:57, 10 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Philologi de stemmate codicum loquuntur. Neander 06:36, 13 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Categoria:Lignum/Ligna

I've put Categoria:Lignum in a couple of articles, but I see that brother Andrew has created the category as Categoria:Ligna. Most of the other wikis, including the English, German, and Italian ones, use the singular. A disparity to be resolved! IacobusAmor 12:49, 10 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

The Italian use the plural (combustibili), don't they? Plus, all the Iberian wikis (both romance and non-indoeuropean) also use the plural. [sorry, I was looking at "combustibles", not at "madera"]--Xaverius 13:49, 10 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

In fact es:wiki does use the plural, es:Categoría:Maderas. One of the few that does. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:37, 12 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

And our rule is to use the plural where the plural makes sense (see VP:CAT#Quomodo categoriae excogitantur et nominantur). I don't see any problem. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:51, 10 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that Categoria:Ligna is a subcategory of Categoria:Anatomia plantarum, whose articles are the singular nouns Rhizoma and Vacuolum. ¶ On a related point: I don't see how/why Categoria:Anatomia plantarum should be distinct from (the much more fully populated) Categoria:Morphologia plantarum, whose (nineteen) articles are all singular: Arbor, Arista, Caudex, Caulis, Cormus, Corymbus, Enatio, Ficus, Flos, Folium, Nux, Panicula, Pappus, Rhizoma, Sepalum, Staminodium, Stipula, Suffrutex, Tepalum. IacobusAmor 14:35, 10 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

This, then, seems to be a problem you have created today, by making Categoria:Ligna a subcategory of Categoria:Anatomia plantarum. By all means implement a solution! If as a result any existing category is emptied and needs to be deleted, that can be done.

... I'm still bemused, because surely it's normal on Vicipaedia for article titles to be singular (where the singular makes sense) and category names to be plural (where the plural makes sense). But, as I say, since you see the problem, do please implement the solution. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:58, 10 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Now, I won't pretend to be an expert on this, but does "Categoria:Ligna" actually make sense? It's a material, so I reckon it should be singular. Chairs aren't made of woods, for instance.

... of course you could say "this chair's made of a variety of woods." But I'd say "ligna" still seems awkward in the plural without context. — Mattie 03:53, 11 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Yet according to Lewis & Short lignum -a in its first sense was "always plural" in classical texts. So to Latin speakers the plural must have made sense.

But I think the problem is slightly different: a difference between what I intended when I created the category ("species that provide wood/timber", a subcategory of "plantae utiles") and the way it is now interwikied and linked. So then there are two questions, both easy enough to solve:

1. what is the best term for "wood" as an aspect of the anatomy or morphology of plants? maybe "Lignum", in which case, yes, yes, please create it;
2. what is the best term for "species that provide wood/timber" as a subgroup of useful plants? Maybe not "Ligna", in which case, please suggest something better. I always go for pregnant brevity, but maybe in this case I went too far! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:51, 11 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Ah, plural? This is what I meant by "I'm no expert on this" :)

What about something along the lines of "species lignis (adhibitae)" or "species ligna ferentes"? Mattie 19:18, 11 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Since lignum (seemingly) is chiefly used in the plural, it almost seems to mean 'piece of wood', while materia may mean something more like 'wood (the substance)'. IacobusAmor 20:43, 11 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think you're right. (Sorry I didn't recognise the problem at first: there certainly is one, I now agree.) But "materia" is a mere variant of "materies" and we are already using that word in a far more general sense (see Categoria:Materies). I am thinking that, for the sense I need, I can't do better than Mattie's suggestion, "Categoria:Species ligna ferentes". OK then. If I take the timber-producing species off in that direction, you are then free either to use Categoria:Ligna, or, if you prefer, to abandon it, mark it for deletion, and create a differently-named category instead.

I've now done that. So "Species that supply wood" are at Categoria:Species ligna ferentes, while "Wood" remains at Categoria:Ligna until Iacobus or someone else decides on the best term. Incidentally, I see that en:wiki confuses these two concepts in its category structure. I don't think that's a good example to follow. Our "Species ligna ferentes" corresponds to the Spanish es:Categoría:Maderas: I imagine that other wikis will gradually separate the concepts as well. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:35, 13 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

A similar problem arises for me at Disputatio Categoriae:Monetae. If you feel like commenting there, please do. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:16, 12 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

That's nice to be creating all those new categories

That's nice to be creating all those new categories, but where are their interwiki links?! IacobusAmor 13:42, 10 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Go ahead and add them. What did your last servant die of? :)

(In case this looks rude, I should explain that all these new categories were left by yourself as redlinks, Iacobus. So I am acting as your servant -- but I'll only do it up to a point. Otherwise you would be "forcing people who care about Vicipaedia's quality to spend time that they'd more happily be spending otherwise", and I'm sure you don't want to do that!) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:59, 10 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Ut tauro textile rubrum, sic Andreae categoria rubra! :) IacobusAmor 14:44, 10 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Well observed. But in case this didn't come across in my earlier comment, I think what you're doing for Vicipaedia's botany and zoology is increasingly awesome. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:51, 10 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

50 000

Ne nimium gaudeatis ... sed paginam numero 50,000 nuper creavimus!

Don't anybody get excited, but I think we've just reached 50,000! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:31, 11 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Alleluia! Nos hoc celebrare possumus volumusque!! Furti 20:07, 11 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Macte virtute esto!--Jondel 01:14, 13 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Ontario, -onis aut Ontarium, -i?

Lemma nostri commentarii Ontario genetivum Ontarionis fortasse significat, et commentarius ipse genetivum esse Ontarionis dicit, commentariusque Ottava genetivum Ontarionus continet, sed verbum Anglicum Mexico—verbi Anglici Ontario simile—Ontarium, -i significat. Quae forma est melius? IacobusAmor 00:04, 13 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

My guess is that Ontarium is the obvious latin name, but perhaps the person who wrote the vici article didn't find a source so they used Ontario as a minimalist solution that doesn't require changing the ending. But that is only a guess.--123.192.64.184 03:00, 13 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if 'Mexico' is a good parallel — it comes by way of Spanish, where a final -o suggests a strong correspondence to a Latin second declension. But that isn't the case for 'Ontario' in either French or English, whichever language the native word was mediated through. Still, which is better attested? 'Ontarionis' is common in Google Books through its use in taxonomy, but according to Google it does not occur in vatican.va (which does use 'Ontarii' at least twice). —Mucius Tever 05:28, 13 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

:en: reads: "The province is named after Lake Ontario, which is thought to have been derived from Ontarí:io, a Huron (Wyandot) word meaning 'great lake', or possibly skanadario which means 'beautiful water' in the Iroquoian languages." I'd done some research too, before I saw your answer, Muci, and as you said, there's quite a lot of easily-found 'Ontarionis' around. I myself only found this for 'Ontarii'. Mattie 05:42, 13 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

If we're bringing indigenous languages into play: "The Anglicized name 'Ohio' comes from the Iroquois word ohi-yo’, meaning 'great river'." Yet we're stuck with Ohium, -i. Oh well. IacobusAmor 14:26, 13 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

So I take it that the weight of the evidence is for Ontario, -onis? The principle of leaving (unattested) nominatives ending in vowels unchanged from the vernacular and letting the other cases sort themselves out as they may is OK with me. Plenty of (short) articles will use only the nominative anyway. IacobusAmor 14:26, 13 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Homework

Do you maybe know how to say HOMEWORK in latin? Thank you! [Usor:Ivan.milicic3510|Ivan.milicic3510]] 20:36, 12 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

David Morgan gives pensum scholasticum, commentatio scholastica, praescriptum puerile, pensum domesticum, and even pensum (domi faciendum / absolvendum), though the latter's unattested, I believe. Mattie 22:52, 13 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

OK! Thank you very much! Ivan.milicic3510 11:07, 14 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

moved here from Disputatio Usoris:UV#Homework --UV 20:04, 13 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Two translation questions

I'm working on a translation of this article from the English Wikipedia, as I saw the porting over as a suggestion over at the Translatio hebdomadalis page. I have the following questions: 1. How would one say "record label" in Latin? 2. How would one properly format the city name of "Sisimiut" into Latin? Brownie Charles 02:49, 17 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Unless somebody has already provided an attestation, I'd first unpack the term record label. A record in general is 'a thing documented', but you're after the special sense of 'a thing documented on a disk', for which the mere discus might suffice. For 'label', the closest classical word may be scheda. So then for the label on the disc you have a disci scheda. But your text expands that concept by metonymy to mean 'a company that produces record labels (and the discs they're on)' or merely 'a record-producing company'. The usual Latin for 'company' in the sense of 'a trading association' is societas. (See Walt Disney Societas.) So there you go. ¶ As for Sisimiut, Vicipaedia's policy on names would probably have you leave it as it is, for now, unless you find a good attestation out there in the ether. Others may give you an appropriate link. IacobusAmor 03:25, 17 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, we've already got a page on Sisimiut. I quite like disci societas, also - I'd used societas discorum in a few articles, but I like it better in the singular, as you put it. Mattie 04:40, 17 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to elaborate a bit on the preceding fine analyses. First, the technical term for commercial labels is pittacium. As regards word order, I find pittacium disci preferable to disci pittacium in titles. In a running text, both word orders are possible. Second, disci societas or societas discorum doesn't quite bring out the fact that 'a record-producing company' is, in the last analysis, a company for (the purpose of) producing records. (Of course, such a company has other purposes as well, such as making money, but this is a different matter.) So, I'd suggest the "dativus finalis" construction, societas discis faciendis or societas disci pittaciis faciendis, depending on what kind of production the company is in. Neander 06:00, 17 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

That's undoubtedly the best solution. I didn't mention pittacium because Cassell's in its English–Latin section attributes it to Petronius (a peculiar source) and then in its Latin–English section doesn't list the word (perhaps as if it were best avoided?). IacobusAmor 12:25, 17 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Old edit toolbar

Is anyone here still seeing and using the old edit toolbar, in particular the nine buttons near the end that are highlighted with a red frame below? (If yes, which ones of the nine are you still using?)

These nine buttons were added via a customized javascript (part of MediaWiki:Onlyifediting.js) that currently applies to all users. This javascript (slightly, but nevertheless) slows down the time required for loading the page and displaying the page in the browser for everyone, for all page views. The default toolbar was changed a while ago to the new "enhanced edit toolbar", so the old edit toolbar is today used by hardly anyone. Unless there is objection, I will remove the javascript code that adds the nine buttons near the end of the old edit toolbar in a few days' time. --UV 23:55, 17 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

I use the thinspace button () almost every day. It used to insert an actual thinspace, but for months it's been inserting the characters that constitute the command. I mentioned this point at the time of the changeover. Are you now going to remove even that convenience? I haven't noticed any slowing down of anything. I just tried it (by clicking the "recensere" button) on Vicipaedia's longest article, Cultura, and the edit screen appeared, ready for editing, in less than two seconds. That duration doesn't seem onerous enough to worry about. Presumably, shorter files would take much less time. IacobusAmor 00:22, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

I have never used that toolbar. I also (sorry, Iacobe) never use thinspace, because thinspace on both my browsers shows up in text as an irritating little square. My habit is to use the special characters at the foot of the edit screen, not the toolbar. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:47, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Is that true of both methods of coding a thinspace? For example, in CFA, the number for magnitudo in the "data [with a lowercase dee] nationis" box is 9 631 419, the spaces coded with (actual) thinspaces by the button as it used to be, whereas in Aegyptus, the number for numerus incolarum in the "Data [with an uppercase dee] nationis" box is 81 713 520, the spaces coded with "&" and "thinsp;" by the button as it now appears in the toolbar: do you see a difference? The only apparent disadvantage with using actual thinspaces is that they allow numbers to break at the ends of lines, as in the numbers 42 000 in the second paragraph of Australia and 2 070 408 in the first paragraph of Columbia (as those articles now stand). IacobusAmor 12:16, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for checking: no difference: I see that little square in both cases. Hence if I want the non-breaking effect I use &nbsp. But, of course, my thinspace problem doesn't matter if it's only me and my computer. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:46, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Andrew, yes, some browsers/computers (especially older browsers/computers) display a little square instead of the thinspace character. In my personal view, we can nevertheless use thinsp as it is only a question of time until all browsers/computers then in use will properly display this character (and the little square is probably not a major annoyance). --UV 23:12, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, it's not a problem meanwhile. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:44, 19 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Iacobe, I suppose that you are one of the very few people that still use the old edit toolbar (which is perfectly fine if you prefer it to the new one). I have now added the javascript code that adds the nine extra buttons to your personal Usor:IacobusAmor/monobook.js and I have removed it from MediaWiki:Onlyifediting.js that applies to all users. Please tell me if you encounter any problems – but you should not notice any difference other than I have also changed the behaviour of the thinsp button for you so that it inserts the actual thinsp character as you prefer. --UV 23:12, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

The old button isn't appearing where it used to on the edit-screen, but I see it down below, where the old clickable em-dashes and en-dashes are, so all seems well. IacobusAmor 14:55, 21 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Motto, Georgia

Hi! Could anyone here please interpret what the motto shown on this image means and how it's properly spelled? Thank you very much in advance. Sorry about the poor image quality, but I haven't been able to find it anywhere else. (I know there's an SVG version on commons, but the text on that one is based on this raster file). - Ssolbergj 23:58, 17 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

"tunica illa inconsutilis desuper contexta per totum." Confer: "Erat autem tunica inconsutilis desuper contexta per totum" (Evangelium secundum Ioannem 19:23). IacobusAmor 00:32, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Alright. Thanks very much! - Ssolbergj 20:44, 25 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Categoriae sanctorum

Should martyrs be categorized under both "Sancti" and "Martyres," as with Sancta Agatha and Alexander I? or, since the latter category is a subcategory of the former, should they be categorized solely as "Martyres," as with Thomas a Becket and Thomas Cranmer? IacobusAmor 12:39, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

We don't normally put the same article in a subcategory and its immediate supercategory. I don't know that much about martyrs. Are all of them saints? If not, the categorization should maybe be changed. But if all martyrs are saints, the categorization is OK and our rule would tell us that on any particular page the category "Martyres" makes the category "Sancti" unnecessary. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:26, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Believe it or not, we're in agreement here. Not all martyrs are saints, or even Christians, but it's likely that Categoria:Martyres was designed for Christian saints of the undivided (and then the Roman Catholic) church; note that Categoria:Martyres Ecclesiae Anglicae is a subcategory of it. Perhaps a bot could remove Categoria:Sancti from all sets of articles having both categories (that and Categoria:Martyres). IacobusAmor 13:46, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Nomina sanctorum

In titles and lemmata, should the word Sanctus precede the name of each saint, as with Sanctus Adalbertus and Sancta Agnes? or should it not, as with Abgarus V and Adeluoldus? At the moment, Vicipaedia uses both styles, with many examples of each. IacobusAmor 12:39, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

I take it you're talking about people only, not about places named after them. Yes, we have discussed this, but I'm hanged if I know where. The consensus was, if I remember, that Sanctus is potentially POV, and was never used in the person's lifetime, so it is preferable not to use it in biographical pagenames, certainly not as first word. It may be needed for disambiguation (many early saints had only one name) and in that case we can put it in parentheses after the name. Clearly no one has hunted them down; I would encourage you to move Sanctus away from first place in biographical pagenames.

As for the lemma, that may well depend who wrote the article :) Logically it isn't part of the person's biography (for the reason given above); it's part of their "fama" or "fortuna". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:20, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Yes, again we're in agreement. Categoria:Sancti shows at a glance the three possibilities for saints: a bare name (e.g., Acacius), a name preceded by an adjective (Sanctus Adalbertus), and a name followed by a parenthetical adjective as a result of the discretiva process (Albanus (sanctus)). Whether the removal of a gratuitous Sanctus/Sancta in titles & lemmata can be effected by a bot is unknown to me. IacobusAmor 13:46, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

We'll see if a bot-owner comments. I suspect it's not possible, because the choice of a new name for the article would require intelligent thought. (Hence we often find such things difficult ourselves!) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:58, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

I was sure we had commented this before. It is all a matter, in the end, if they are famous because they are saints (St. George, St. Sebastian, St. Justus and Pastor, St. James, etc), or they if were famous and important for other reasons (Gregory of Tours, Isidore of Seville, Tomas Becket, Louis IX, Ferdinand III, etc. Even Ignatius de Loyola). Of course, again, we're back to POV's...--Xaverius 15:39, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

In case this helps, UVbot could move the pages if we agree on new titles here. Please propose new titles here (or add something like non movenda for titles that are ok). This, however, would still require manual cleanup of the pages afterwards so that the lemma mentioned in the first sentence will again correspond to the new title.

UVbot has moved the pages. Now, they require manual cleanup so that the lemma mentioned in the first sentence will again correspond to the new title. --UV 23:30, 22 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Cleanup is done (together with more or less development of the articles).--Utilo 21:36, 5 Martii 2011 (UTC)

• Agatha Catanensis
• Agnes Romana
• Bernadetta Lapurdensis
• Birgitta de Suecia
• Caecilia Romana
• Catharina Senensis
• Clara Assisiensis
• Clotildis (regina Francorum)
• Dymphna
• Gertrudis Nivellensis
• Hedvigis (regina Poloniae)
• Ioanna Franciae
• Mustiola Clusiensis
• Philomena Romana
• Praxedis Romana
• Rosalia Panormitana
• Teresia Abulensis
• Ubaldesca Taccini
• Ursula Coloniensis
• Walpurgis (abbatissa Heidenhemensis)
• Protomartyres Romani
• Adalbertus (episcopus Pragensis)
• Aegidius abbas
• Aloisius Orione
• Anicetus (papa)
• Antonius abbas
• Antonius Patavinus
• Bartholomaeus (apostolus)
• Basilius Ostrogiensis
• Bernardinus Senensis
• Blasius (episcopus Sebastensis)
• Bonifatius Winfridus
• Carolus Luanga
• Cassianus Forocorneliensis
• Ceadda (episcopus Letocetensis)
• Chromatius (episcopus Aquileiensis)
• Columba de Iona
• Cyprianus Carthaginiensis
• Demetrius Thessalonicensis
• Edmundus (rex Orientalium Anglorum)
• Fidelis de Sigmaringa
• Floridus (episcopus Tifernatensis)
• Franciscus Assisiensis
• Georgius (sanctus)
• Gualterius presbyter
• Iacobus Maior (apostolus)
• Iacobus Minor (apostolus)
• Ioannes Cantius
• Ioannes (evangelista)
• Ioannes Bosco
• Ioannes Didacus
• Iosephus (sanctus)
• Irenaeus (episcopus Lugdunensis)
• Laurentius (archidiaconus et martyr)
• Laurentius Ruiz
• Lucas (evangelista)
• Macarius I (episcopus Hierosolymitanus)
• Mamilianus (episcopus Panormitanus)
• Marcianus (episcopus Syracusanus)
• Marcus (evangelista)
• Martinus Bracarensis
• Martinus de Porres
• Matthaeus (apostolus)
• Matthias (apostolus)
• Mauritius (sanctus)
• Norbertus (archiepiscopus Magdeburgensis)
• Pancratius Romanus
• Pancratius (episcopus Tauromenitanus)
• Patricius (sanctus)
• Petrus de Alcántara
• Philibertus Gemeticensis
• Philippus (apostolus)
• Rochus (sanctus)
• Stephanus (primus martyr)
• Sulpitius Pius (episcopus Bituricensis)
• Sulpitius Severus (episcopus Bituricensis)
• Switunus (episcopus Wintoniensis)
• Synesius Bremgartensis
• Teliavus
• Thomas (apostolus)
• Ursus Solodurensis
• Vincentius Caesaraugustanus

--UV 22:24, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Aliqua nomina proposui. Aliis pergere (et corrigere) suadeo! Saepe utile est in alias Vicipaedias spectare. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:27, 19 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Cur "Matthaeus (apostolus)" sed "Marcus (evangelista)" &c? Neander 13:14, 19 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Incuria mea, sine dubio. Corrige igitur, mi Neander! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:23, 19 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Marcus fuit evangelista, sed non apostolus!--Utilo 19:03, 19 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Ita quidem. Pudet me ignoratiae meae. Neander 18:00, 20 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Gualterius socius Sancti Adalari Erfurtensis fuisse videtur (cf. [6]); nihil de vita eius vel de vi in posteros reperire possum.--Utilo 20:52, 19 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Optime fecisti, Utilo! Necesse est igitur aliquid aliunde exstare de Gualterio; pro tempore scripsi "Gualterius presbyter". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 22:07, 19 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

On preserving eighteenth-century typographical conventions

Because Latin is the language of biological taxonomy, Vicipaedia has the problem of whether to uppercase or lowercase the names of plants & animals. For months now, a variably named friend, who today goes by the name of "151.20.184.231," occasionally pops up to change lowercase taxa into uppercase ones. Today, at his hands, "Scientia quae amphibiis cum reptilibus studet herpetologia vocatur" became "Scientia quae Amphibiis cum Reptilibus studet herpetologia vocatur." Here, the context is taxonomical, and so the capitalization may be appropriate; but in more "ordinary" contexts, the capitalization can jar the eyes—as it would, say, in English if we were to read that St. Francis was talking with the Birds, rather than with the birds. (Who are these Mr. & Mrs. Bird? one might ask.) The survival of eighteenth-century typographical conventions here, particularly when the custom in academic Latin for more than a century now has been to use lowercasing more than vernacular languages do, remains curious. Are we never to speak of amphibians and reptiles and insects and fish and birds, but must always speak of Amphibians and Reptiles and Insects and Fish and Birds? Are we never to speak of mere elms (ulmi), but always to speak of the mighty Elms (Ulmi)? ¶ If we're to continue to use both conventions (the antique and the modern), a contextual criterion for deciding which to use could be the presence or absence of an explicit taxonomical sign. For example, avis in an unmarked context would be spelled in the modern manner:

Ciconia nigra est magna avis familiae Ciconiidarum

(it's one of many creatures we know in common parlance as birds); but with a taxonomical sign, it would follow the antique manner:

Ciconiiformes sunt ordo classis Avium

(it's one of a group of technically defined things). Even there, though, one wonders. Vicipaedia's definition of Aves begins:

Aves . . . sunt classis animalium

not

Aves . . . sunt classis Animalium.

Similarly, in all the definitions I've checked, the English Wikipedia lowercases bird even when it's in a taxonomy-emphasizing context, just as Vicipaedia does above with animalium. Do people have thoughts on this? More particularly, 151.20.184.231, why are you capitalizing so many nouns? IacobusAmor 14:41, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Germanisms? Germanophile?--Xaverius 15:33, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Aliquanto pertinens: De specierum nominibus

The line between scientific and non-scientific names gets pretty blurry with species. I came across the problem (so to speak) while writing about foxes: "vulpes velox" seems like a perfectly normal, common name for an animal (cf. "swift fox" in English) but "vulpes vulpes" is clearly scientific (no one talks about foxes foxes — they're red foxes). It feels silly to constantly capitalize and italicize "vulpes velox," but matching with "vulpes vulpes" seems important as well. Could it be argued, then, that many Latin names can work as both scientific and common names? If that's the case, then it seems you could either talk of vulpes veloces or of Vulpes veloces; but of Vulpes vulpes or of vulpes fulvae, not vulpes vulpes. I think that in articles unrelated to biology, the 'common' name, if there is one, should be used instead of the scientific one, just like on :en: they usually talk of red foxes and not Vulpes vulpes. In biology pages (for instance on the actual page de vulpibus velocibus), I think the scientific name should be used for the species. What do you think?

... mostly, really, my point is that I don't think it's necessary to capitalize and italicize some species' names in every situation. Mattie 19:49, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Re using the binomen as a common name—When the species epithet is an adjective, I believe it really is intended to evoke the 'swift fox' effect—Vulpes velox is a kind of vulpes that doesn't have its own particular one-word name, and one could even just call it a vulpes if one didn't need to be specific (!). The species epithet will be a noun if there is a one-word name for the creature (and I think this distinction was originally significant, as Linnaeus capitalized species epithets in Systema Naturae when they were nouns—and Germanesque capitalizing nouns in general was not a feature of the running text). Although absolute tautonymy like Vulpes vulpes is a weird case, even with Linnaeus' original Canis vulpes the "common" name to use would still be vulpes. Using that principle for the template Felidae, I wrote acinonyx (for Acinonyx jubatus), leo (for Panthera leo), neofeles (for Neofelis nebulosa), onça (for Panthera onca), etc. I do believe there are those here who disagree with me on this, though. —Mucius Tever 14:14, 19 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

My instinct is to capitalize when the context explicitly marks an entity as a part of a taxonomic system and to lowercase when it deploys the entity in a "common" manner. Thus with the insects:

Periplaneta est insectum familiae Blattidarum.

Blattidae sunt familia insectorum ordinis Blattodeorum.

Blattodea sunt arthropoda classis Insectorum.

Likewise, seems right to speak of "Acinonyx jubatus" (capitalized & italicized) at first mention, but then later in the text (lowercased & roman) as "hic acinonyx," or "acinonyx quem observabamus," or whatever. IacobusAmor 15:30, 19 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Automatic taxobox

Could a kind programmer import the automatic taxobox so that it works here, as in Abarema? Or instead of being a newfangled box, is that an old-fashioned one, which should be avoided? IacobusAmor 15:21, 18 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Vicilibri

I want to make croatian dictionary. But how to say it on latin. Is this ok: "Glossarium Croatice"? (Why the name of language ends on -e? e.g. Glossarium Italice, Glossarium Hispanice)

Thanks! Ivan.milicic3510 10:15, 20 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

-e is an adverbial termination: Croatice means "in Croatian". It would be better Latin to write "Glossarium Croaticum" (neuter adjective, because "glossarium" is neuter). "Glossarium Italice" and "Glossarium Hispanice" are not really good Latin titles. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:25, 20 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Clerici?

Up to now we haven't consistently categorised priests/clergy geographically. I would like this to be possible because I'm developing English history on Vicipaedia. Is it OK to use the word "Clerici" as a general term (of which e.g. Episcopi and Archiepiscopi will be subcategories)? Is there a better word? If Clerici is OK I will gradually populate the category Categoria:Clerici Britanniae that I have just created; if not, I'll recreate it under a better name.

This doesn't affect categories for the sect/church these people belonged to: e.g. Categoria:Episcopi Ecclesiae Anglicae is a religious, not a geographical category, and I don't suggest changing it. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:13, 20 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

On a side note, there are two approaches to "profession-by-country" categories: en.wikipedia allows such categories liberally, while de.wikipedia has practically no such categories at all: On de.wikipedia, articles about people are added to one category indicating their profession and to another category indicating their country (the equivalent in our case at hand would be Categoria:Clerici and Categoria:Incolae Britanniae). That way, de.wikipedia needs to maintain far less categories and still has as much information available as en.wikipedia (accessible via Vicipaedia:CatScan). --UV 22:35, 20 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

The proposed category would seem to be equivalent to en:Clergy by nationality. As the English category shows, it's going to include bishops, cardinals, chaplains, clergymen, imams, lamas, ministers, popes, prelates, priests, and rabbis. Does clericus (a Late Latin term) cover all these? This category is a subset of en:Religious leaders by nationality. What's the best term for that? duces religiosi ? duces religionum ? And how are "clergymen" to be distinguished from "religious leaders"? ¶ Incidentally, the subcategory en:American clergy includes en:Michael Arthur Newdow, the famous atheist! IacobusAmor 00:13, 21 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for both of your thoughts. What we do at present, as you both know, is somewhere between German and English: under "Incolae ..." of national units we have a smallish range of subdivisions, scriptores, eruditi, musici, athletae etc., which means that the "incolae" categories do not become enormously large. I know the high-maintenance implications of the full-on English method, which is why I am forever banging on to Iacobus about not imitating it! In a way, my suggestion aims to round off the small range of profession-by-country categories that we have. Up to now cardinales and the like are categorised geographically only as "incolae" of national units -- which otherwise applies in principle only those who are not notable for their specialised or professional activities at all, e.g. lovers of famous people: not the ideal company for a self-respecting clericus or religiosus.

Iacobus confirms (I hadn't checked) that en:wiki does have an equivalent of this wide-ranging category, and calls it by a name cognate with Latin "clerici". That's useful to know. (My feeling is that atheists don't qualify; indeed, they don't even enter the examination. Whether Aleister Crowley would qualify is another question.) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:01, 21 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Newdow is catalogued as a clergyman because he is! He's an ordained minister of the en:Universal Life Church, whose ministers "are allowed to follow their own belief system path. For example, ministers of the Church may follow a traditional Christian belief system, they may follow other world religions, they may blend various faith traditions, or they may be agnostic or atheist." So the pertinent criterion in your category will be to exclude nonclerical atheists, but to include ordained atheists! IacobusAmor 12:53, 21 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Got it :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:09, 21 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

my suggestion aims to round off the small range of profession-by-country categories that we have – ok, no objection! --UV 23:14, 21 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Scapha Polynesia

Scapha Polynesia is a misleading translation of 'outrigger canoe'. The article states that these supposedly Polynesian things are elements of cultures outside of Polynesia, including Africa. Vicipaedia's system isn't allowing the creation of a disputatio page for this point (where it belongs). Why is that? IacobusAmor 14:17, 21 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Seems OK now. I have just created Disputatio:Scapha Polynesia: see if you can add to it. There have been a few brief hiccups recently, I guess because of the change to a new version of MediaWiki, but the problem passes. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:51, 21 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but time's up for the day! Maybe another time! IacobusAmor 15:00, 21 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

"why infobox?" (Andreas frater)

Why not?! IacobusAmor 19:24, 23 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Falsae in commentariis botanicis zoologicisque res

Iterum atque iterum. IacobusAmor 15:45, 9 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Fortasse oportet omnes IP a Guadalajara, Mexico obstruere. Petimusne?--123.192.64.184 10:47, 11 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Fortasse necesse est nobis eum in Hispanico sermone scribere.--Xaverius 13:34, 23 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

Iam egomet ei scripsi Hispanice iterum iterumque, sed is meas rogationes explanationesque Hispanicas iterum iterumque omnino neglexit, evidenter ex voluntate eius (ut credo). Nescio autem quomodo obstruere omnes IP ex Guadalajara.--Rafaelgarcia 15:35, 22 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Omnes tibi non necesse est obstruere: solum 189.196..., 200.56..., 200.77..., et 200.92.... ad rerum statum pertinent. IacobusAmor 12:22, 25 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Obstruere nolo ego (sicut supra dixi) sed, si alius magistratus obstruendum suadet, nihil obstat. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:57, 22 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Cur obstruere nolis tu? IacobusAmor 15:52, 1 Martii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.92.118.151, usor sine nomine

Iterum atque iterum scribebas "genus mammalium multituberculatum," Anglice 'a multituberculated genus of mammals'. Secundum autem Wikipedia (Anglice), significationem ut videtur petebas 'a genus of multituberculated mammals'. Hae significationes non sunt una et eadem. Ergo, amabo te, definitionem omnino resarci. ¶ Etiam erat mendum "familia mammalium multituberculatum." ¶ Etiam "familia exstinctum," &c. IacobusAmor 04:39, 8 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.77.17.16, usor sine nomine

Vide supra. IacobusAmor 16:56, 8 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.77.12.184, usor sine nomine

Vide supra. IacobusAmor 17:39, 8 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.77.24.253, usor sine nomine

Vide supra. IacobusAmor 15:45, 9 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.77.10.208, usor sine nomine

Vide supra. IacobusAmor 15:49, 9 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.56.177.210, usor sine nomine

Vide supra. IacobusAmor 16:15, 9 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.56.181.32, usor sine nomine

Vide supra. IacobusAmor 16:45, 9 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.56.180.232, usor sine nomine

Vide supra. IacobusAmor 17:11, 9 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.92.90.254, usor sine nomine

Quid nunc significat sententia "Acinetobacter est genus bacterium gramma-negativa sunt"? Eius grammatica est res mira. IacobusAmor 13:42, 11 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.77.16.238, usor sine nomine

Quid significabat sententia Legionella est genus bacteriorum gramma negativorum sunt ? Anglice significare potest 'Legionella is a genus of negative bacteria. A gram. They are.' Ineptias garriebas. IacobusAmor 12:46, 12 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 189.196.54.222, usor sine nomine

Haec adfirmatio est falsa: "Hydrosaurus est genus reptilium species agamidarum familiae" (Anglice: 'Hydrosaurus is a genus of reptiles, a species of the agamids' family'). Genus non est species. IacobusAmor 17:48, 19 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.92.90.40, usor sine nomine

Grammatica sententiae "Hydrophis est genus species hydrophiidarum familiae" est falsa. IacobusAmor 17:36, 20 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 189.196.61.246, usor sine nomine

Grammatica sententiae "Cyrtodactylus est genus species gekkonidarum familiae" est falsa. Praeterea, grammatica sententiae "Laticauda est genus species marinus hydrophiidearum serpens familiae" est falsissima. Qua pro causa Vicipaediam sic obsides? Paene nihil ut videtur de nostra lingua dilecta contra multos experiendi menses (et fortasse quidem annos) didicisti. IacobusAmor 17:36, 20 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.77.19.33, usor sine nomine

Grammatica sententiae "Streptomyces est genus bacterium gramma positivorum" est falsa. Cur nostram linguam sic dedignaris? IacobusAmor 13:57, 21 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.77.10.22, usor sine nomine

Grammatica sententiarum "Anomochilidae est familia serpentum squamatarum ordinis" et "Uropeltidae est familia serpentum squamatorum ordinis" et "Xenopeltidae est familia serpentum squamatorum ordinis" est falsa. Si Anglice loqueris: Is there a chance that you'll pause for a moment to learn as much Latin grammar as students typically learn in the first two weeks of study? IacobusAmor 11:37, 23 Ianuarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.77.17.143, usor sine nomine

Grammatica sententiae "Ctenophorus est genus lacerta agamidarum famliae" est falsa. If you're the same person as the contributor above, you seem not yet, after months or seemingly years of effort, to know even the simplest of Latin grammatical rules. Every article that you've begun has been desirable (and thank you), but the appearance of almost every one of your texts has lowered the grammatical standard of Vicipaedia, and because of the unrelenting obtuseness of this process might therefore be considered an instance of vandalism. If you do have goodwill toward Vicipaedia, is it within the realm of possiblity that you'll take an hour or two and study the first grammatical lesson in any of numerous good textbooks? IacobusAmor 20:35, 1 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 189.196.58.189, usor sine nomine

Grammatica sententiae "Limulus est genus species cheliceratum arthropodum phylorum" est mirifice falsa. IacobusAmor 13:29, 2 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.77.27.18, usor sine nomine

Ecce grammatica: "Cnemidophorus est genus lacerta teiidarum familiae." Why do you keep doing this? Anybody can make a grammatical error, but your insistent (and anonymous) nongrammaticality, in the simplest of syntactical constructions, might be regarded as a form of vandalism. IacobusAmor 18:45, 3 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.77.8.102, usor sine nomine

Ecce grammatica: "Triturus est genus amphibium [sic] Salamandridarum familiae." IacobusAmor 10:56, 5 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 189.196.59.95, usor sine nomine

Eae sunt, non est. Vide definitionem tuam "Poaceae est familia plantarum florentium Poalium ordinis." IacobusAmor 16:12, 17 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.92.128.20, usor sine nomine

Eae sunt, non est. Vide definitionem tuan "Laurales est ordo plantarum florentium." Simile: "Lauraceae est familia plantarum florentium Lauralium ordinis." IacobusAmor 16:12, 17 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.92.138.65, usor sine nomine

Eae sunt, non est. Vide definitionem tuam "Oleaceae est familia plantarun [sic] florentium Lamialium ordinis." IacobusAmor 16:12, 17 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.92.139.163, usor sine nomine

Eae sunt, non est. Vide definitionem tuam "Turdidae est familia avium Passeriformum [sic] ordinis." IacobusAmor 16:12, 17 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 189.196.54.14, usor sine nomine

Eae sunt, non est. Vide definitionem tuam "Liliales est ordo plantarum florentium." Simile definitionem tuam "Liliaceae est familia plantarum florentium Lilialium ordinis." IacobusAmor 16:12, 17 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.77.5.129, usor sine nomine

Eae sunt, non est. Vide definitionem tuam "Amaryllidaceae est familia plantarum florentium Asparagalium ordinis." Simile definitionem tuam "Iridaceae est familia plantarum florentium Asparagalium ordinis." IacobusAmor 15:00, 21 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

O amice 200.77.11.166, usor sine nomine

Eae sunt, non est. Vide definitionem tuam "Asparagaceae est familia plantarum florentium Asparagalium ordinis." Simile definitionem tuam "Vitaceae est familia plantarum florentium in ordine Vitalium." IacobusAmor 15:00, 21 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

De Caryophyllaceis

Eheu, O 200.56.176.254, usor sine nomine, eae non est. IacobusAmor 12:22, 25 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

De Polygonaceis

Eheu, O 189.196.53.230, usor sine nomine, eae—hae multae res—non est. IacobusAmor 12:22, 25 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

De Ranunculaceis

Eheu, O 200.77.13.220, usor sine nomine, eae—hae plantae—non est. IacobusAmor 13:35, 28 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

De Ranunculalibus

Eheu, O 200.77.13.220, usor sine nomine, eae—hae plantae, hae multae plantae!—non est. IacobusAmor 13:35, 28 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

De Sapindalibus

Eheu, O 200.92.99.219, usor sine nomine, eae plantae non est. IacobusAmor 15:52, 1 Martii 2011 (UTC)

De Cerce

Eheu, O 200.77.10.203, usor sine nomine, significatio tuae sententiae "Cercis est genus plantarum florentium species Caesalpinioidearum" est obscura, quod genus non est species. IacobusAmor 15:54, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

De Phaseolo

Eheu, O 200.77.10.203, usor sine nomine, tua sententia "Phaseolus est genus species" est falsa, quod genus non est species. IacobusAmor 15:54, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

De Rutaceis

Eheu, O 200.92.111.166, usor sine nomine, eae plantae non est. IacobusAmor 14:24, 3 Martii 2011 (UTC)

De Piciformibus

Eheu, O 189.196.59.231, usor sine nomine, grammatica tuae sententiae "Piciformes sunt ordo est" est falsa. IacobusAmor 14:19, 4 Martii 2011 (UTC)

De Hydrocharitaceis

Eheu, O 200.92.102.85, usor sine nomine, hae plantae non est. IacobusAmor 14:58, 8 Martii 2011 (UTC)

De Gesneriaceis

O 200.56.191.108, amigo sin nombre, hae res ubique sunt, non est. IacobusAmor 13:02, 14 Martii 2011 (UTC)

De Cicere

O 200.92.119.16, amigo anónimo, grammatica significatioque tuae sententiae "Cicer est genus . . . species" falluntur, quia genus non est species. IacobusAmor 13:31, 14 Martii 2011 (UTC)

De Scrophulariaceis

O 200.92.125.210, Scrophulariaceae non est quia eae sunt. IacobusAmor

De Arache

O care 200.92.102.49, Arachis non est "genus plantarum florentium species": genus non est species. IacobusAmor 12:05, 17 Martii 2011 (UTC)

De Cyprinidis

O carissime 189.192.169.47, Cyprinidae non est quia eae sunt. IacobusAmor 13:17, 17 Martii 2011 (UTC)

De Taxodio

O carissime 189.192.152.25, genus non est species. IacobusAmor 14:30, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

De Poeciliidis

O carissime 189.192.169.47, hae res non est, quia eae sunt. IacobusAmor 11:22, 21 Martii 2011 (UTC)

De Rhizobio

O enixissime 189.196.22.96, verbum bacterium non est genetivum. IacobusAmor 12:41, 22 Martii 2011 (UTC)

De Bifidobacterio

O enixissime 189.192.138.248, grammatica sententiae "Bifidobacterium est genus bacterium" est falsa, quia verbum bacterium non est genetivum. IacobusAmor 11:34, 23 Martii 2011 (UTC)

De Hydrophilidis

O enixissime 189.192.214.233, ecce sententia "Hydrophilidae est familia." Yes, they is! They is! IacobusAmor 12:32, 31 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Latine

How to say on latin "You are logged in as...(+ name, eg. You are logged in as Ivan)".

Thank you! Ivan.milicic3510 16:05, 25 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

The message on login at Vicipaedia is "Apud Vicipaediam agnosceris ut "Ivan"". I'm not sure this is OK; ut usually introduces a clause (with a verb), and there's no clause here. One might write "Apud Vicipaediam agnosceris nomine "Ivan"" -- you are recognised on Vicipaedia, your name being "Ivan". Perhaps someone else will comment. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:50, 26 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

In classical Latin, the conjunction ut, before an appositive noun, implies a comparison (e.g., canem suum colit ut deum 'he worships his dog like (= as if it were) a god'). Therefore, I'd prefer Apud Vicipaediam agnosceris nomine "Ivan". Neander 18:43, 26 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Infobox canales televisifici

Vide infobox. Menda: sedes non est nomen masculinum! + tempus principi? + dominus? proppagatio? + terrester? + satelliter? (I'd have put this on the appropriate disputatio page, but Vicipaedia is making that page a blue & uneditable screen today.) IacobusAmor 15:09, 26 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

O tempores! O morus! ... Melius est hic disputare. Latinitas omnium paginarum, in quibus haec capsa imponitur, est pessima; oportet igitur aut

1. capsam omnino recensere, si quis vult, una cum paginis annexis; aut
2. omnem inceptum de programmata televisifica Italiana delere sive in scriptorium movere. Quid faciendumst? Fortasse quidam Italice loquens hanc rem explicare vult ad usorem L'Elvetico? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:35, 26 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Nonne, si capsam reparemus, onmia menda in paginis automatice evanescunt? --Alex1011 17:46, 26 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Non omnia :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:02, 26 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Si aliquid putatis huic usori Italiane dicendum, ipse libenter praesto. --Poecus 20:43, 27 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

In linguis Polynesiis, U non est V

In case anybody has looked into Tonga lately, our anonymous geographer has been forcing Polynesian vowels into the Roman alphabet in an impossible way. For example, he renders the proper name Maui as Mavi, probably (one hopes!) not knowing that, in Polynesian languages, the stress of a base usually falls on its next-to-last mora, and this word is therefore pronounced more like Maúi than, as the wrong spelling implies, like Mávi or Maví. Praeterea, in linguis Polynesiis, /u/ et /v/ sunt phonemata dissimilia. Exempli gratia, in lingua Samoana, ua est collum (et urbane pluvia), sed va est spatium ; āua est piscis generis Velamugilis, sed āva est honor ; taua est bellum, sed tava est arbor generis Pometiae ; und so weiter. But not to worry! Let's allow our geographer to finish, and then I'll go in and tidy up. IacobusAmor 15:36, 27 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

That seems a good idea to me. I have plans to take a second look at Birmania some time. The Geographus quietly does very useful work, and is not possessive once articles are finished. An almost-perfect Wikipedian in fact. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:54, 27 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

"Species Typica" in taxobox

In taxobox, mandatum "|type_species" gignit verba Species Typica, sed secundum Stearn, "type-species of a genus" recte est typus generis (non, exempli gratia, typica generis species). IacobusAmor 14:11, 28 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

Romania (linguistica)

Some cleanup seems to be necessary: Romania (discretiva) Nr. 4 links to Linguae Romanicae; on the other hand there is Europa Latina without any links; other languages differ: English distinguishes between en:Latin Europe and en:Romance-speaking Europe, other languages only have Latin Europe, German in contrast de:Romania (Linguistik). Which way to follow?--Utilo 17:46, 28 Februarii 2011 (UTC)

I do not see a true difference between "Latin Europe" and "Romance-speaking Europe", it seems something that en:w has made up. better to choose a name for the region of Europe in which Romance languages are spoken, which is not Romania (I do not feel that it should redirect to linguae Romanicae either).--Xaverius 16:26, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

It's true, though, that the term Romania is used among philologists for this concept of "region of Europe where Romance languages are spoken" (which I guess is why it's used in this way on de:wiki). So, whatever term we choose, this concept still needs to appear in the Romania (discretiva) page. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:50, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

If we could find a reference to "Romance-speaking europe" = "Romania", then it's simple, as from Romania (discretiva) wr can create a link to Romania (linguistica).--Xaverius 17:59, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

On a second thought, maybe Europa Romanica may be better. then we would need to make a clear difference between Europa Romanica and Latina (if such a difference truly exists)--Xaverius 18:02, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I don't feel strongly about this, but I think Romania (regio linguistica) would correspond with the usage of philologists. The concept is easy to define, though we might wish that those philologists had chosen a word with fewer alternative meanings. I don't know whether we can find an attestation in Latin (for this or for any other term!); if we can't, we can still treat it as a loanword: I have seen it used in this exact form in German, French and English at least.

It would then be obviously quite different from Europa Latina, which seems to be a political/cultural theory and seems (from the English article) to be a bit difficult to define. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:41, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

De thema originis huius verbi (Romania), librum habeo ubi scribitur qui in saeculo V Orosius dixit:

"Nam ego quoque ipse virum referentem audivi se familiarissimum Ataulpho apud Narbonam fuisse, ac de eo saepe sub tetificatione didicisse, quod ille referre solitus esset se in primis ardenter inhiasse ut, obliterato Romano nomine, Romanum omne solum Gothorum imperium et faceret et vocaret, essetque, ut vulgariter loquar, Gothia quod Romania fuisset."

Nisi classicus est verbum, in antiquitate posteriore iam usabatur. --189.122.82.229 22:01, 29 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Aiuto per traduzione

Salvete! Scusate se parlo in italiano. Sto preparando una voce per il progetto in lingua italiana, sugli usi linguistici a Ragusa (Dalmazia). Ho bisogno di un aiuto per la traduzione del seguente passo: "Primum illud non deest incommodi, quod ego cunctis, omnes mihi sunt ydiote, per interpretem agenda omnia (...) Idque quoque tedium aget, quod ignaros latini sermonis nescio mihi barbari, quorum opus habes, admoneri.". Qualcuno mi può aiutare? Grazie!--Presbite 08:53, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Salve, Presbite. Primieramente, non marca quella gabaccio, che io agli tutti, tutti a me sono idioti, è necessario tutti attraverso interprete fare. E anche tedio, che non posso gli ignoranti della lingua latina, a me barbari, di chi hanno bisogno, ammonire. --Martinus Poeta Juvenis 18:21, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC).

spero te adjuvare potuisse, quum sermonis Italiani me non tam peritus quam sim Latini. :-( Dic, si aliquid false transferam. (spero che potevo aiuvare, mentre non posso così parlare il italiano che latino. Dimmi se qualcosa male traducevo.) --Martinus Poeta Juvenis 18:22, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Ciao Presbite. Vediamo che posso fare nel caso del messere Joannes Conversini. Il Latino è medievale dunque la traduzione può essere mala. Faccio una traduzione con complementi fra parentesi:

Primo, a questa (situazione) non manca l'incommodità perche per tutti quelli compiti dove non conosco tutte le parole (aliene) ho bisogno di un traduttore (...) E questo mi da fastidio dunque ammonisco quelli che non sanno la lingua Latina chi io non so la (lingua) Slava.

Qualche Assunzioni:

ydiote mi sembra una parola che significa un frase/parola nella lingua locale di Ragusa (i.e. Slavo)

tedium forse è taedium

barbari referisce alla lingua volgare -> Slava

Spero che questo è utile per te. El Suizo 20:15, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Salve Presbite, io sono italiano. Vorrei aiutarti nella traduzione, e confesso che la frase è difficile, soprattutto per quel mihi barbari, che mi ha proprio spiazzato e l'unica ipotesi che mi viene in mente è che non si riferisca alla lingua ma agli abitanti. In secondo luogo, ydiote credo venga dal greco Idiòtes, che vuol dire tra l'altro "ignorante, inesperto" (qui s'intende della lingua latina). Cunctis non può essere "in tutte le cose /compiti" perché sarebbe una ripetizione di omnia agenda. La traduzione potrebbe essere:

"Per prima cosa non manca l'inconveniente che io con chiunque -tutti per me sono inesperti (della lingua)- devo svolgere tutte le mansioni tramite l'interprete (...) e anche questo dà fastidio, che gli ignoranti della lingua latina (che sono) stranieri per me, dei quali c'è bisogno, non so come possano essere ammoniti."

è la soluzione migliore che ho trovato, cioè ipotizzando un pronome sottinteso o omesso: (qui) mihi barbari. Spero vada bene. Comunque se mi viene in mente qualcos'altro te lo farò sapere.--Poecus 22:10, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Grazie a tutti: siete stati fantastici!!!--Presbite 10:45, 3 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Foundation Images Policy

(copy this from the disputatio of our pagina prima--Xaverius 17:57, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC))

Hi everyone,
I am Yosri from Malay Wikipedia. Recently I was informed by certain parties that MS Wiki need to delete any images tagged as Non-Commercial under Foundation Licensing policy. After I have done some studies, I realised that Wikipedia Foundations is moving towards allowing commercialises all images, as such they are acting on behalf of commercial company to require all images loaded with tagging Non-Commercial in all Wiki Project to be removed, including those loaded in local Wiki. You are only allowed to licenses your images under "free content", which specifically allows commercial reuse, example GDLF 1.2. Certain images is exempted under a very narrow EDP ("exemption doctrine policy") definition. If you all already aware about this, please ignore this comment. Otherwise, for more details please visit http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Wikimedia_projects_still_using_non-commercial-only_images.3F Yosri 17:41, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

This is irrelevant to us, since we got rid of locally uploaded images a while ago. All images are now stored on commons. --UV 21:42, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Mystery blockage

The past few days, I've tried to create an article, but the system won't let me. The message reported is "Per nexum progressus es ad paginam quae nondum exsistit aut iam deleta est, vide acta deletionum. Novam paginam si vis creare, in capsam infra praebitam scribe. Vide paginam auxilii si plura cognoscere vis. Si hic es propter errorem, solum Retrorsum in navigatro tuo preme." The "capsa infra praebita" is blue (instead of white) and—contrary to what the error message says—doesn't permit anything to be written to it. Of course the page doesn't exist (because it hasn't been created yet), and any of about seven tested permutations of the title haven't been deleted either—so this error message appears itself to be an error. Does anybody know what's going on? IacobusAmor 19:48, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

No, it isn't a question of the page having been deleted -- in any case, even if it had been, you would still be entitled to re-create it.

Do you mean (sorry to reply to a question with a question) that you haven't been able to create any page, under any title, since 15 February? (It looks as if that's when you last started a page.) If so, it seems to me like a dispute between you and your browser, or between your browser and the new MediaWiki version. Three tests you could do.

1. Log out, come back to Vicipaedia as an anonymous IP, and try to start a page

I tried that just now, and it works, but I don't want to create pages anonymously. IacobusAmor 20:31, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Of course, I understand. In view of what you say below, we may have to wait until UV comments. In the meanwhile, if you're keen to create a page, anonymously may be the only option. From the observed facts, it seems that if you create and save a very brief page anonymously, and then log in again, you would be able to go back to it and add text under your proper name. Maybe try that as an experiment? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:39, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Maybe, but time's up for today, so we'll try again tomorrow morning. ¶ Incidentally, as I just now proved, the same problem occurs in the English Wikipedia; that fact may get UV off the hook! IacobusAmor 20:52, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

1. Use a different browser on your own computer, if you can, and try to start a page
2. Use any browser on any other computer you can get access to, and try to start a page

These tests would help to see where the problem is. Someone else may have different suggestions ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:14, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Has it been that long, since 15 February? (My, but tempus fugit!) I decided a while ago to stop creating pages until I could update my homepage, but then I saw a couple of things (including a category!) that I could have added in the past few days. So it's unclear whether the blockage started around 16 February or more recently. Maybe the problem began when UV did something to my system, trying to preserve the thinspace button on the toolbar, but evidently failing, as that button has disappeared. ¶ Later: Or maybe not; see above. IacobusAmor 20:29, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

The message you reported is not an error message but the standard message that appears when an article does not exist yet and can be created. I cannot imagine what exactly might cause the problem you describe, most probably a problem in your browser. Let me add a fourth suggestion to the three suggestions of Andrew: Clear your browser cache (how to do that depends on which browser you are using, a typical path would be Options -> Settings/Preferences -> Cache -> Clear entire cache). --UV 22:06, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

That didn't work. Vicipaedia still won't let me create articles. IacobusAmor 22:52, 4 Martii 2011 (UTC)

If the problem appears on en.wikipedia as well, you might also ask for advice on en.wikipedia (en.wikipedia has a larger community than la.wikipedia ;-) and perhaps someone else there has a better idea on how to solve your problem).

I definitely did nothing to your system/your PC/browser etc.! (I plainly cannot.) What I did a few days ago was to move the javascript code that adds additional buttons to the #Old edit toolbar to your Usor:IacobusAmor/monobook.js. --UV 22:06, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

This process did not put the thinsp button back where it was. IacobusAmor 14:25, 4 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I just tested this in my Usor:UV/monobook.js and it worked fine for me, but if you suspect that this caused the problem, you could try blanking your Usor:IacobusAmor/monobook.js (or I or any other admin could delete that page, if you prefer this). But if you encounter the same problem on en.wikipedia, then your la.wikipedia monobook.js is definitely not at fault, since your la.wikipedia monobook.js affects only la.wikipedia, not en.wikipedia or any other wikipedia. Greetings, --UV 22:06, 2 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Why don't you do the "blanking" so as to undo what you did. IacobusAmor 14:25, 4 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I have done that, since UV isn't around. You will, I expect, lose some buttons. If you notice other unwanted side-effects I can immediately restore the page. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:12, 4 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I am able to create pages, without any inhibition, even from anonymous ip, so it isn't Vicipaedia that is doing the blocking. It must be something wrong with your browser or browser settings. Try a different browser if you can to check that this is the case. Or try a different computer such as a friend's.--123.192.64.184 05:27, 5 Martii 2011 (UTC)

We established that I could create pages anonymously, and that's an important clue. (For the record: I followed UV's instructions to clear the browser cache, and I even ate all my cookies, to no avail.) See the next entry, below. IacobusAmor 13:35, 5 Martii 2011 (UTC)

The problem has revealed itself! I can create pages—but one wouldn't think so from looking at my monitor. The light-blue screen seemingly in place of the edit screen is a huge, blank, toolbarlike entity, subjoined to the actual toolbar and standing maybe 25 to 30 lines high: it nearly fills the screen and therefore hides the fact that the true edit-screen is below it, discoverable after scrolling. Unable to write to this light-blue object, I wrongly supposed that the edit screen wasn't there. ¶ So now the question is why is Vicipaedia imposing on my screen a useless toolbarlike entity of that size? Surely the pixels on the screen must result from something in the code, so now could a knowledgable programmer go into my file, find the guilty piece of code, and delete it? Since the problem manifested itself after UV had tinkered with the toolbar, that may be the likeliest part of the code in which to start looking. IacobusAmor 13:35, 5 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I have no clue as to what might cause the effects you describe. If this problem appears on the English wikipedia as well, I would suggest that you ask for advice there. Be prepared that they will probably ask you which browser and what browser version you are using (e. g. Internet Explorer 8, Firefox 3.6, etc.) --UV 22:05, 5 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Translatio peto

For the article I have a dream I look for a Latin translation of the title of the political rally AD 1963. It was: March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. The actual translation seems not to fit in my eyes. Gratias ago... El Suizo 12:51, 3 Martii 2011 (UTC)

It certainly doesn't, not least because agmen is neuter, so agminem (as the word stands in the current version of the article) is impossible. ¶ For the idiom of 'an attack on', Caesar gives us the idiom oppugnatio + genitive. An agmen is basically 'a driving movement' (hence, 'a line of march' and similar senses), but agmen Vasingtoniae may not be quite right. Closer to Caesar's syntax, using a noun from the same root (agere) with the -tio suffix, would be Actio Vasingtoniae. ¶ For 'for jobs and freedom', a gerundive should work, perhaps in the form of something like ad laborem libertatemque petendas (capiendas?), though 'jobs' are perhaps more accurately translated as pensa or opera. Wait a while, and others may offer better solutions. IacobusAmor 13:17, 3 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Vel etiam "Iter Vasingtoniam operis libertatique petendis" ? --Utilo 13:54, 3 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Sive "Iter Vasingtoniense ..."? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:26, 3 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Accedo!--Utilo 15:59, 3 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Optime! I'll change accordingly. El Suizo 21:29, 3 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I can not agree. The desired meaning is 'march'.iter will be understood as 'travel/journey/a walk' I feel the best bet is really agmen(accusative).--Jondel 11:05, 4 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Iter is surely OK: one of the first and main senses in Lewis & Short (see here iter) is "a going to a distant place, a journey, and -- of an army -- a march". That's exactly the sense we want: often followed by the accusative for the destination, as Utilo suggested. Whether my suggestion of an adjective "Vasingtoniense" in place of the accusative is acceptable, we might doubt! seemed OK to me :)

Agmen is also a good word for an army etc. on the move, but I haven't encountered agmen + accusative (or any other simple construction) to indicate the destination of this movement. Can that be found? The one apparent example in the dictionary entry cited by Jondel is Cicero, and it turns out not to be what we want: Cicero is talking about when he travels from Brundisium to Rome, not about the agmen making this journey. But maybe I missed something -- tell me if I did.

Incidentally, the link Jondel provides is to another copy of Lewis & Short, apparently not credited, and with a fair number of typos or OCR errors. Lewis & Short is in the public domain, of course. Useful to know it's there, though the version we link to at Formula:Lewshort seems much more reliable. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:50, 4 Martii 2011 (UTC)

In case the problem isn't clear, it's possible to give a parallel example in English (I think). "March" and "Column" can both, in context, denote an army &c on the move in a certain direction. But "March to Washington" and "March on Washington" are both OK; "Column to Washington" and "Column on Washington" are not. In a similar way, the constructions we can use with "iter" and with "agmen" may be different. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:05, 4 Martii 2011 (UTC)

[Written before the preceding:]

Maybe it will help if potential contributors focus on the fact that it was a march on Washington, not a march to Washington: nobody marched to Washington; and insofar as anything describable as "marching" occurred, it was a march to the Lincoln Memorial. It was not a journey to a distant place: people may have come from far & wide, but the only actual marching was the vague movement of a crowd assembled around the base of the Washington Monument to the area generally on the east side of the Lincoln Memorial. Many "marchers" probably "marched" less than 1000 feet; some simply showed up at the Lincoln Memorial, and didn't "march" at all. (As written descriptions imply, the crowd more or less "oozed" from one place to another; no "line of march," strictly speaking, developed.) The route of this movement, if it can even be considered a route, was entirely contained by a small part of the west portion of the Mall. Wikipedia does not define the event as a march: it defines it as "a large political rally." ¶ Whatever the title of the article, the definition should recognize that the event had nothing like the regular order of a parade: it was a demonstration, itself defined as an "action by a mass group or collection of groups of people in favor of a political or other cause." IacobusAmor 13:32, 4 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Ha! That does change one's view entirely. I had no idea: I imagined something more like Mao's Long March. As you describe it, it was not an iter, and not really an agmen ... still, it called itself a march ... The only difference I see between "march to" and "march on" is that "march on" is warlike while "march to" may be peaceful: this may be my British usage ... how strange! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:18, 4 Martii 2011 (UTC)

That's why I was initially drawn to the pattern of oppugnatio + genitive, resulting in the suggestion Actio Vasingtoniae. ¶ Other marches on Washington have been proposed or perhaps even held. IacobusAmor 14:35, 4 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I understand now why you suggested that. Maybe it's best after all. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:42, 4 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Sorry If I didn't reply. I was expecting the Holocaust, a ban or something on me.

Here is what I believe 'agmen' really means and thus would be better: a procession or march to show the world or display something like for a religous purpose, festival, or celebrate military victory. Thanks for pointing out the link was a Lewis version. The accussative is because 'apud' is used ('made the speech at the march' apud agmen). Iacobus'ad laborem libertatemque petendas' seems much better because for example latin labor will automaticaly be understood as today's labor (in English). If this was totally Ciceronian, then pensa or opera etc would be better. Please convert to iter if you /anyone really feels this is better or precise. I will not revert Me paenit for my tactlessness.--Jondel 05:59, 6 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Now that Iacobus has explained to me how this event unrolled, I agree, Jondel, that agmen is a definite possibility :) But I think, if I may, I'll leave further discussion of this to you others -- Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:40, 6 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I didn't know exactly, what the whole thing was like - I expected day-long marches from all sides to the capital with a final meeting at Lincoln memorial! If not, agmen to me seems to be the better choice.--Utilo 15:11, 6 Martii 2011 (UTC)

People came from all over the country (presumably the bulk of them from within a few hundred miles of the capital), but they didn't formally parade toward Washington, or apparently even toward the Mall: the event seems to have been an assembly of people who more or less gathered in one place. IacobusAmor 11:32, 21 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Observatorium Civitatis Heidelbergae-Konigstulae

Observatorium Civitatis Heidelbergae-Konigstulae est inter paginas desideratas "desideratissima". Primo quaerendum est, utrum verbum "observatorium" an potius "specula (astronomica)" pro tali instituto adhibeatur; deinde forma Konigstula(e) male novata esse videtur: Königstuhl (sedes sive thronus regalis) mons est, cuius appellatio Latina (si umquam fuit) mihi ignota est. Propositio 1: Observatorium (sive specula) civitatis Heidelberg-Königstuhl; propositio 2: Observatorium (sive specula) Heidelbergense (-is) in monte Königsstuhl situm (sita).--Utilo 16:39, 3 Martii 2011 (UTC)

It depends IMO if the observatory is called an observatory or if it is named after its mirror telescope. In general an observatory uses many means to observe, including specula (mirror telescopes). Observatorium therefore is an all inclusive term, specula a very specific one.--123.192.64.184 06:40, 5 Martii 2011 (UTC)

O.k. Sounds good to me. Then we'll have "Observatorium Civitatis Heidelbergense (Königstuhl)" - Is there a bot to change all 740 occurrences of "... Konigstulae" to the new version?--Utilo 15:36, 5 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Exemplar aliarum linguarum sequens "Civitatis" omittam.--Utilo 21:31, 8 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Anglice "top hat"?

Salvete! The Vatican's Lexicon Recentis Latinitatis helpfully gives us the translation of bowler hat as petasus meloneus. However, no doubt due to an oversight, they fail to include top hat. Traupman is silent. Many languages (Italian included) call it a cylinder hat, but there is no entry in LRL under cilindro or cappello. A few other languages call it a high crown hat (Spanish), a high hat (Dutch), a form hat (French), a silk hat (Japanese), a pipe hat (Icelandic). In English, the alternate terms are silk hat, cylinder hat, (chimney/stove) pipe hat. What do we call it? Do we go with the apparent majority and use petasus cylindricus, or cylindricus for short? --Robert.Baruch 19:45, 3 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Its upper part does look cylindrical, and so, if its shape is its most salient trait, a Latin version of cylindrical hat may be the best term for it, though cylindrical hat sounds odd in English. Compare the following terms and their definitions (in Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary):

beaver = a hat made of beaver fur or a fabric imitation

castor = a beaver hat

high hat = BEAVER

opera hat = a man's collapsible top hat consisting usu. of a dull silky fabric stretched over a steel frame

silk hat = a hat with a tall cylindrical crown and a silk-plush finish worn by men as a dress hat

stovepipe = SILK HAT

top hat = a man's tall-crowned hat usu. of beaver or silk

In my experience, a stovepipe is an elongated silk hat (think: Abraham Lincoln), but these definitions don't recognize that distinction. IacobusAmor 14:21, 5 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Was Abraham Lincoln's hat truly enormous, or was it just in proportion with his body, which was quite tall? And then there's Isambard Kingdom Brunel whose top hat was truly tall, all out of proportion. Anyway, amusement aside, according to those definitions, "top hat" in today's English probably represents the top-level class of objects we would recognize as hats with a brim and a tall cylinder. But when seen by people in other nations, they may have immediately thought "cylinder" (or pipe, or chimney, or silk, depending on what cluster of neurons fired), and applied that word to describe this class of hats.

One could then go down the route of naming subclasses of top hats, which may have been required when top hats were the fashion, but considering the (to my mind, unfortunate) lack of top hats we see today, there is most likely a consequent non-necessity of assigning names to different types.

So my question is, should the lemma be cylindrus (petasus) -- a cylinder (hat), following the example of many languages -- or petasus cylindricus -- a cylindrical hat? --Robert.Baruch 17:44, 6 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I'd vote for petasus cylindricus because the object in question is more a kind of hat than a kind of cylinder. Also, the cat in the hat wears one, and he's been established to be the Cattus Petasatus, not a cattus cylindricatus! IacobusAmor 18:20, 6 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Fractiones?

Nuada, quid putas significare fractiones ? Anglicum 'breakings (to pieces)'? Anglicum verbum fraction Latine est pars. Ut videtur in tuis commentariis, tua fractio est pars urbis vel municipii. IacobusAmor 00:52, 4 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Smith's English-Latin Dictionary sensu, ait, arithmetico: fraction = "fractio, quae dicitur". --Alex1011 13:27, 4 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Late Latin, a back-formation from modern English? IacobusAmor 14:14, 4 Martii 2011 (UTC)

The arithmetical sense doesn't yet appear in Alexander Souter, A Glossary of Later Latin to 600 A.D. (Oxonii: Clarendon Press, 1949. ISBN 0198642040), which does, however, offer "weariness; illness, prostration (of fever patients)". Unhelpful I fear. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:42, 4 Martii 2011 (UTC)

The english term fraction comes from the Latin mathematical term fractio, just as do most other arithmetical, geometric and calculus terms. The idiomatic term for a fraction in common latin speech is of course pars, e.g media pars for half, centessima pars for an hundredth. Just as in english you would never say, "give me a fraction of your apple", but you would say " give me a part/piece of your apple"; use fractio sparingly only when explicitly writing about the mathematic concept : which in meaning is part ratio, part division, and part part. Cf. Du Caille--123.192.64.184 05:22, 5 Martii 2011 (UTC)

traduction - translation

Bonjour, hello
Je souhaiterais connaitre la traduction en français ou en anglais / I would like to know the translation in French or in English of this sentences :

• brevi complector singula cani — pastorum carmina ludo
• non nisi grandia canto — irindens cuspide figo

Ces phrases se trouvent sur la marqueterie du bureau du Roi au château de Versailles / This sentences are on the bureau du Roi (King Desk) marquetry in the Palace of Versailles.
Merci - Thanks - Gratias !
TCY 23:30, 5 Martii 2011 (UTC)

(Magistri emendate si vobis palaceatis. )

brevi complector singula cani — pastorum carmina ludo

I am briefly embraced by a dog/jackal/old age. - I sing the song of the pastor.

nisi grandia canto — irindens(=>irridens) cuspide figo

Not unless I sing greatly/the great - Mocking, I pierce the spear. --Jondel 04:16, 6 Martii 2011 (UTC)

These seem to be disjointed sentences, not part of a continuous context.

Brevi complector singula cantu. = I embrace unique things in a short song.

Pastorum carmina ludo. = I play shepherds' songs.

Non nisi grandia canto. = I sing [of] nothing but great things.

Irridens cuspide figo. = Jeering, I transfix [something] with a spear.

What's the purpose of this exercise? (Btw, Brevi complector singula cani = 'I embrace unique things for a short dog'!) IacobusAmor 05:06, 6 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Your translations really are definitely very good and teach me alot like non nisi -nothing of. Those are inscriptions, requested for translations. Click on the links on top.--Jondel 05:16, 6 Martii 2011 (UTC)

If you are interested in, the main source (not the origin!) of these four short sentences is Cesare Ripa, Iconologia, p. 408.--Utilo 10:01, 6 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Putting these phrases into Google is also very useful. They are all mottoes that apply to literary genres, and maybe to Muses and to classic authors. "Non nisi grandia canto" has been attached to Clio the Muse of history (I'm not sure yet if it's a quotation from a classical text). "Pastorum carmina ludo" is based on "... carmina qui lusi pastorum ..." Virgil, Georgics 4, 565: it's the pastoral genre. If I've got it right, Virgil is saying the words about himself, as the author of the Eclogues. "Brevi complector singula cantu" is the genre of lyric. "Irridens cuspide figo" is the genre of epigram: it has been said of Martial. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:06, 6 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for all ! TCY 11:08, 6 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Semantics

Allow me to say that it is important to translate by meaning that is really understood not by the dictionary meaning. For instance if I were to translate "I have a dream". I would translate the equivalent of " I have strong aspiration or desire" if I used dream, the response might be 'Is the guy asleep ? ' or sleep talking. Of course most of will get the meaninq anyway if I used sleep dream but the purpose of language is to communicate meaning that is understood. I encounter discrepancies in dictionary meanings and actual usage, specially as a Japanese translator at work. ---Jondel 04:16, 6 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Do you ever see the journal The Linguist? It's read by translators in Britain. I wrote a note in that journal about the English phrase "to sleep late". Usually, where English is spoken, this phrase means "to sleep longer than usual, to wake up late". In the English of Hong Kong, however (I'm told) the phrase means "to go to sleep late". This is said to be because the ordinary Chinese verb corresponding to the ordinary English verb "to sleep" doesn't so much refer to the whole period of sleep, it refers to the moment of going to sleep. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:16, 6 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Very interesting. I didn't plan to get into languages. I went through lot of similar trouble, like 'quiet a few' which we know means 'a lot' (not FEW! which those Japanese thought it was). I was working as a translator for a Japanese newspaper company. I can recognize some Chinese through Japanese. ---Jondel 15:30, 6 Martii 2011 (UTC)-

I don't have access to The Linguist since I live in the other side of the globe. I have to go and "sleep late' now. --Jondel 15:35, 6 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you, Jondel: It is important to translate by meaning! In the case of dream / somnium, however, I suppose Cicero would get the meaning (out of context) when reading "Mihi est somnium" etc. Like English "dream" the Latin word "somnium" is also used in figurative meaning, both negative (phantasm; maybe more often?) and positive (cf. "Somnium Scipionis", where somnium gets the connotations of vision, hope etc.). To me "I have strong aspiration or desire" looks more like a comment or a paraphrase (which of course is o.k., too) than a translation, especially in this case, because "dream" here is opposed to "American dream", so the word should appear, if possible.--Utilo 15:40, 6 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I won't be insisting of course that we translate to 'strong desire/aspiration' but it is good to keep this in mind. --Jondel 11:36, 8 Martii 2011 (UTC).

On the necessity of a more coherent orthography: i/j, u/v, æ, œ, apices etc.

Dear friends of Vicipædia Latina, I would like to propose to you the following short reading about latin orthography. According to the author of this piece, latin got infected by a diseas that I unfortunately know very well, since the very same disease infects my mother tongue: Italian. It goes without saying that my countrymen are the authors of this unfortunate situation. But you will read about this in the article.

[NB. I have deleted a very long quotation from the article linked below -- it would be a copyright violation, Wikimedia can't do that -- anyone can click on the link and read it. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:04, 8 Martii 2011 (UTC)]

Vicipædia could be seen as a missed opportunity, having this project rejected the long established tradition of a coherent and sound orthography to the advantage of this italian nonsense which perverts the latin language.

Oops, forgot to link the article. http://avitus.alcuinus.net/schola_latina/litterae_en.php

Thanks for this anonymous exhortation! It's nice to hear of Avitus again. I would say in response, if I may, that your mistake is to focus on the trivial. In this case the medium -- by that I mean the small details of Latin orthography -- is not the message.

In this broader view, Vicipaedia is an opportunity gained -- and it is thriving. Come and join it. Vicipaedia is an opportunity for all serious Latinists, because if we are serious about Latin, we are certainly able to read texts with various orthographic conventions. We do it all the time. We are very lucky that the differences are in fact so trivial. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:04, 8 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Welcome back, Avite; your skills have been missed! You've raised some good points, and I don't think it's a mistake to study the details of orthography. ¶ However, I suspect that solutions to the highlighted problems will eventually come from technology. Already we have the ability to use a gadget to convert ae and oe to their ligated forms—so if we want to see them on our individual screens, we can, right now. Some day (I have no doubt), dictionaries or conversion-programs coded in multiple orthographic styles will be floating in the background, permitting other gadgets to enable users to see texts in various combinations of i/j and u/v and all-caps-with-interpuncts and so on. Then, the style in which the texts of Vicipaedia are encoded won't matter at all. For human eyes, though, over the next few years, it's probably best to continue consistently with the style already in place. ¶ One of course has thoughts on each of the orthographic points raised by Avitus, but today is too short to for their indulgence. ;) IacobusAmor 14:28, 8 Martii 2011 (UTC)

If we were to automatically convert i/j/u/v, the distinction would have to be present in the source and we would have to start using j. As for ligatures, I don't see a case for them but if people prefer to see them again a translation program is just fine. Honestly the best argument for using j (also v) is that many languages using the Latin alphabet absolutely require the distinction, and it's silly to do so for English, French, etc. but not for Latin given that it's been used in Latin for at least as long. Pantocrator 02:54, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Interesting point. It is perfectly true that by phonological logic, if we choose to use v semivowel, we should also use j semivowel. The best reason for not doing it (and I think this was the reason, though I wasn't around when they decided) is that the great majority of modern printed Latin doesn't do it. Assuming that was the reason, I strongly agree with it because, in such details, reference sources should not be innovators or go against the current trend. To attract the most possible users, they should go with what those users find normal and comfortable. That way, they are best placed to educate all those users about some of the things that really matter (in our case, the substance of what we write in our articles).

But I also think that we can spend our time better than heartsearching on this. Iacobus is quite right: although no gadget does it now, a gadget will surely be designed to convert between these orthographies. Once we have it, we could make everybody happy. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:56, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

"The previously meaningless, slight difference in shape between a shorter or a more elongated I (i/j) or a more or less pointed V (v/u), all of which existed already in classical times as mere graphic variants" ? For someone who already knows of the apex, that's an interesting gap; we know I longa was functional. (I'm still trying to come to a conclusion on J myself for my own orthographic guide, though so far the evidence is on the side of allowing it, at least in some contexts. Those who want to see what I've collected so far, [7]; password iota till it's published.)

His statements against the ecclesiastical I/U/V system are very intriguingly written; he has taken all the facts — the system represents the widespread Italian/ecclesiastical pronunciation of Latin, where the classical semivowel J is still a semivowel /i̯/ or /j/, but the classical semivowel V has become a fricative consonant /v/, and some classicists who didn't use /v/ phonemicized the script further to an I/U system — and has injected his opinion into it in such a way that these facts (which on their own are perfectly reasonable) are presented as errors; but he only asserts them so, and doesn't prove his case. —Mucius Tever 15:12, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Codex utilis estne?

Codex antiquus, ca. 1540

Incipium

Exemplum ex libro

Salve! Inveni apud avorum meum codex antiquus versimilis ab Ioannes Ludovicus Vives. Nam agitur dictionarium Theodisce-Latine/Latine-Theodisce ca. anno 1540 conceptum. Imagines monstrant liber ipse, incipium a Vives et exemplum partis libri NOMINA REGIONUM (exactius: GENTH (Gandavum) - METZ (Mettis)). Codex non solum translationem verborum singulorum, sed etiam nonnullas partes nominum regionum, instrumentorum, plantarum, partius domus, morborum etc. pp. continet.

Ecce quaestio: Estne utilis propagare imagines e libro partes nominum continentes in Vicipedia (sive Victionario/Communia)? Fortasse pro usoribus Theodisce aptis prodest. Photographia no est professio mea et codex fragilis est, tamen possum parare imagines si optatas sint…El Suizo 09:18, 8 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Per se scilicet utilissimum. Sed fortasse primum examinandum est utrum hic codex iam nescioquo in interrete extet. Propono vicipaediae paginam una cum nonnullarum exemplo paginarum sicut iam est a dextra parte factum. --Alex1011 08:33, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Please, consider scanning this valuable book with a DIY Book Scanner and uploading to the Internet Archive or to Distributed Proofreaders! --Robert.Baruch 21:50, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Formulae desideratae (et vide supra)

Vicipaedia lacks some possibly increasing numbers of formulae now being used elsewhere. Could a kind Vicipaedian programmer please create "Formula:Infobox person" (as used in en:), not to mention the formulae requested above? IacobusAmor 14:03, 8 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Iam habemus Formula:data hominis --Alex1011 21:23, 8 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but that formula lacks lines for "years active," "occupation," and "religion." Another missing formula is Formula:aut, for authors in bibliographies. In ignoring functional innovations, Vicipaedia is becoming antiquer & antiquer. IacobusAmor 11:30, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

We don't have "programmers" really. What happens is that Vicipaedia editors create or import the formulae that they need. It might be seen from hindsight as a big fault of the interwiki environment that the adapting of formulae from any one wikipedia to any other can be a long and tiresome task, and the more complex the formula the more time-consuming it is.

If you want a formula only once, you won't find that it's worth spending that much time on it (and it wouldn't be fair to ask others to do it for you) -- much better write some text instead. On the other hand, if you want it lots of times, it will probably repay the time you or others spend on it. But better make sure it's fit for purpose before you start :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:36, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I have just had a look at en:Template:Aut. It redirects to en:Template:Smallcaps. The latter requires more than twenty other en: templates to work correctly, some of which might require adaptation in order to work over here; all this in order to "display the lowercase part of your text as typographical small caps".

Incidentally, there's no magic about finding this information. You could do this too. If "Template:Aut" is wanted in a page you're translating, you can go back to en:wiki, find "Template:Aut", read the documentation which says what it will do for you, then click on "Edit" or "View source", and scroll to the bottom of your page to see a list of other templates that are required to make this one work. Then consider whether you want to spend the time on it ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:56, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

An edit-conflict has just abolished the comment I'd written to place here, but time to reconstitute it is lacking. IacobusAmor 13:06, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Another missing formula is for "infobox film," which, in an inevitable effort to narrow ("dumb down"?) the scope of Vicipaedia, our Swiss montagnard has just deleted from My Fair Lady. IacobusAmor 13:06, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

As a criticism that's astoundingly inapposite: Helveticus widens the scope of Vicipaedia every day! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:22, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

It's what noster Pantocrator did too: delete formulas that didn't work, thus narrowing the scope and thinning out the graphic design of the encyclopedia. Of course H. expands Vicipaedia every day with all those new ministubs he adds; nobody would ever deny that! IacobusAmor 13:41, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Fine.

I didn't know till now, but that was among the things Pantocrator did right! Part of the vicification of a new article, if it's translated and includes templates from another wikipedia, is to ensure that the templates either

1. already work, or
2. can be made to work by copying and adapting the template, or
3. are replaced by text. The choice between 2 and 3, as I said above, depends on editors' judgment: "how will the time be best spent"? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:56, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Such deletion can set progress back. Time is often best spent by importing material and leaving its imperfections to be fixed. In various ways, that's what almost everybody who has ever contributed to Vicipaedia has done. Everything is a work in progress. The answer to a need for further vicification isn't usually obliteration of data that would lighten later helpers' efforts. (Further arguments suppressed because time for the day has expired.) IacobusAmor 14:11, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Time for thought, then. No harm in that :) You'll notice when you re-read that I don't suggest obliterating data. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:30, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Left-hand translation

Care 85.116.228.5, usor sine nomine, decem in commentario de coffeo mutationes nunc ipsum fecisti, quarum novem nomen adiectivum vel nomen substantivum casu genetivo a dextra ad sinistram eius nominis substantivi movent. Cur sic scripsisti? IacobusAmor 17:33, 8 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Paene omnis commentarius = locus adlatus?

Plurima ut videtur commentarii Thomas Erastus verba sunt locus adlatus, florido putidoque saeculi obsoleti modo excogitatus. Quis retexet hanc telam? IacobusAmor 11:50, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Ita: ex hac pagina venit. Haec ad paginam disputationis addo. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:02, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Populus

How now how to say Serbian (for female and male) in Latin?

Thank you! (PS. Can you add the whole word, I mean, the extension for genitiv case) Ivan.milicic3510 19:24, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Serbus, -i (m.); Serba, -ae (f.). Also see Serbi. --Robert.Baruch 21:45, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Declinatio verbi "Chaos"

How to declinate the noun "chaos"? I found this in my dictionary: chaos, n. (acc. chaos, abl. chao) Thanks! Ivan.milicic3510 19:27, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Cassell's says it's nom. & acc. Chaos and abl. Chao, and no other cases have been found. IacobusAmor 21:13, 9 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Genetive & dative Chaï is attested in grammarians. Neander 08:58, 10 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Ita, nomen quod est 'chaos' Latine vix aliter declinatur ac 'pelagi' et 'ceti' nomina, de quibus vide hic. --Fabullus 15:46, 10 Martii 2011 (UTC)

And I imagine there's no plural in any language (chaoses?). Pantocrator 02:55, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. One's enough :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:37, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

SSSS

On the page Serbi I found, I think, two mistakes: Samo Sloga Srbina Spašava
Samo is an adverb. So, the translation sola isn't ok (sola is adjective, and it means alone, or something like this). It should be solum (only). Srbina is accusative (accusativus generis masculini) so, the translation should be Serbum (Usor Robert.Baruch scripsit: "Serbus, -i (m.);") Am I right?

Ivan.milicic3510 17:11, 10 Martii 2011 (UTC)

You are right, there should be "Serbum" (solum / sola makes no difference in meaning, though, of course, you are right concerning grammar)--Utilo 18:08, 10 Martii 2011 (UTC)

OK. SOLA means alone, so the translation of this is "alone concord serb saves". It doesn't have any sense. It must be SOLUM ("only concord serb saves").Ivan.milicic3510 19:22, 10 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I think Utilo is right, there is no difference in meaning. Translated into English (if I understand correctly), "Concord alone saves the Serb" or "Only Concord saves the Serb". Both make sense.

There is a good reason for preferring the form "sola" in Latin: "solum" would be ambiguous. Is it an adjective "Concord saves the only Serb" or is it an adverb "Only Concord saves the Serb"? Since word order is free in Latin, you can't tell. So it is better to use "sola", which is not ambiguous and makes perfect sense. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:31, 10 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Sola concordia serbum servat = only concord saves the serb; solum concordia serbum servat = ambiguous depending on whether solum is taken in adverbial sense modifying verb or modifying serbum: i.e. either concord saves the only serb or only concord saves the serb. --123.192.64.184 18:51, 10 Martii 2011 (UTC)

OK. Thank you. I just want to say this: in my language, croatian, this is also neuter, like in latin, and this also can be ambiguous (samo sloga - here's samo adverb, it's neuter, and sloga is feminine, and they aren't in the same gender, so it must be adverb, but if I write samo djete, it's ambiguous, because dijete is neuter, and samo is also neuter, so it can be adverb or adjective (translation: only child; alone child (eg Home alone)). Obviously croatian has some similarity with latin!Ivan.milicic3510 21:13, 10 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Thanks -- it was a very interesting point to raise. It's nice, too, that the same slogan can be abbreviated SSSS in both languages. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:18, 10 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Administrator

Who's administrator on vikilibri? 78.3.231.204 13:12, 11 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I don't think we know: everything seems ominously quiet over there. I can trace only one magistratus at vicilibri, called "The Doc", whose last contribution was in 2007. Perhaps someone else can help? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:40, 11 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Currently, the only admin there is "The Doc". A while ago, User:Alex1011 and I (User:UV) temporarily held admin rights there as well. If there is need (e. g. if "The Doc" does not respond to requests), I would be ready to run for admin there again, and possibly User:Alex1011 as well. Greetings, --UV 22:34, 11 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I made new wikibook, ("Glossarium Croatice"). So, can somebody add it? Thanks! Ivan.milicic3510 11:34, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I notice there are already several glossaria on Vicilibri. They all have this form of title. As I said above, I don't think this is good Latin. In classical grammar an adverb modifies a verb or an adjective but not a noun. If a two-word title is wanted (and why not) it should be "Glossarium Croaticum", and the others should be changed to match. Would anyone else agree? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:14, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you! I only wrote this title (croatice) because other books have title like this. Ivan.milicic3510 12:22, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I agree, too.--Utilo 11:43, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Lingua Croatica et Serbica

These two languages are similar. But there isn't "lingua serbocroatica". These languages aren't the same. They're only similar. There is difference between them. So can somebody write "lingua Croatica et Serbica" or "lingua Croaticaque Serbica", or something else? Thanks!

Ivan.milicic3510 13:25, 11 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Maybe someone with a deeper knowledge on languages may be able to help here. But I'd argue that the language, just as the people, should not be "serbicus" but "serbius" or "serbus" (thus lingua Serbia). Likewise for Croatian (lingua Croata)--Xaverius 20:27, 11 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Forsitan, sed quid de Gallus / Lingua Gallica (et postea: Francogallica); Germanus / Sermo Germanicus (Sueton); Lingua Russica, Anglica, Arabica, Hispanica etc.?--Utilo 14:53, 13 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I think, Ivan.milicic is right: Today's perspective (in Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro) doesn't any longer allow to speak of a serbocroation language. Serbocroation was a standard based on one dialect and created in the 19th century to unify Croatian and Serbian dialects/languages. It served as official language till 1991. Croatian and Serbian were looked upon as dialects of one single language ("Western" and "Eastern"). Nowadays Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian and even Montenegrin are treated as distinct languages (which, of course, is more a political than a linguistic issue). When speaking about these languages in common sometimes the shortcut BCS (for Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian) is used (in order to avoid the term serbocroatian). Some German linguists have introduced the term "Mittelsüdslawisch" (Middle-South-Slavic). In reality standard Croatian and standard Serbian (based on one dialect, Štokavian, as mentioned above) are nearer than some dialects of Croatian itself.--Utilo 10:01, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Of course I'm right. Croatian is my language, and between serbian and croatian is difference between some words, and accent. Their accent is very different from our. (eg. in croatian, child is djete, and in serbian dete, and they're also using some different sentences, sentences with da, eg. croatian: "Volim ići u školu." means "I like to go to school", and in serbian: "Volim da idem u školu."; they always use "da"; and they're sometimes using different letters, Cyrillic, eg. "Волим да идем у школу." - "Volim da idem u školu."). Ivan.milicic3510

I didn't want to instruct you, Ivan, I rather wrote for those who might have less knowledge of these languages and their relationship among each other.--Utilo 11:40, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Max Weinreich's aphorism—אַ שפּראַך איז אַ דיאַלעקט מיט אַן אַרמיי און פֿלאָט 'a shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot', 'a language is a dialect with an army and a navy'—seems to be in play here. Minor differences in phonology (like djete vs. dete, or American English /hɨr/ vs. New Zealand English /hiː/ = 'here'), and minor differences in vocabulary (like this da vs. ići, or British English boot vs. American English trunk), and minor differences in spelling (like Roman vs. Cyrillic letters, or British newspaper English realise vs. American English and Oxford English realize) don't usually distinguish languages. It might be useful to note how Wikipedia's article starts (emphasis added): "Croatian . . . is the collective name for the standard language and dialects spoken by Croats. . . . They are varieties of the Serbo-Croatian language, along with Serbian, Bosnian, and Montenegrin." Probably all the major points at issue have been discussed ad nauseam apud en:Talk:Croatian_language. IacobusAmor 13:44, 13 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Aliqui administrator sententia mea deleat paginas redirectionis Lingua Croatica, Lingua Serbica et Lingua Bosnica, ut his nominibus commentationes singulares scribi possint.--Utilo 11:48, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Melius sit, sine deletione, paginas redirectionum in paginas substantivas convertere. Si id facere vis, ita faciendumst: 1. imprime e.g. Lingua Croatica; 2. ad paginam Lingua Serbocroatica volens nolens adductus, imprime in litteras parvulas "Lingua Croatica" sub titulo visas; 3. imprime "Recensere"; 4. paginam tuam scribe! OK? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:57, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

OK! Intellexi.--Utilo 13:08, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Tabula scriptoria

I don't know how you say this word - verb. When person removes the letters from blackboard with something, eg. sponge, and those letters somebody wrote, for example a teacher. I want to know how to say this on latin ([this verb that I don't know how to say on english] + blackboard - tabula scriptoria). So, how to say it? Gratias tibi ago! Ivan.milicic3510 20:09, 11 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Erase/delere?--Xaverius 20:26, 11 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I think the verb lino, 3. levi aut livi, litum would be this what I was looking for. The verb deleo, 2. -evi, -etum means delete, but it can also mean destroy, raze or even kill. I don't think the verb delere is right. I searched at google translation and I found the verb linere. This verb can mean erase. I don't know is this OK. Can you tell me, is this sentence right: Tabulam scriptoriam lino. Ivan.milicic3510 19:01, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

"lino" ist to bedaub - If you want to clean the blackboard, "linere" would be quite the opposite! Take delere, radere or eradere.--Utilo 19:11, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

OK. Gratias tibi ago! Ivan.milicic3510 19:17, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Checking

Here's dialog. I want somebody check it. (It's for latin wikibook on croatian wikibooks; everthing must be true)
Lectio tertia - Quotos annos habes?
Marcus: Ave, Iulia! Mihi nomen est Marcus. Quid est hodie?
Iulia: Ave, Marce. Hodie septendecim Octobris est.
Marcus: Gratias multas ago. Mihi dies natalis in diem Veneris est.
Iulia: Felix dies natalis sis!
Marcus: Gratias tibi ago. Quotos annos habes?
Iulia: Habeo viginti annos.
Marcus: Vale, Iulia.
Iulia: Vale!
Is everthing OK? Gratias multas ago! Ivan.milicic3510 21:44, 12 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Ecce:

 * Quot annos natus es? (usum verbi "habere" duco invalidum)
 * Hodie est dies septendecima mense Octobre/sexto Kalendis Novembris.
 * Mihi dies natalis in die Veneris est.
 * Viginti annos natus sum.
 * Felix dies natalis tibi esto/sit\Felicem diem natalem habeas\ Tibi diem natalem felicem tibi exopto.

--Martinus Poeta Juvenis 13:57, 13 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Ok. Thank you! Ivan.milicic3510 14:07, 13 Martii 2011 (UTC)

• Quot annos natus es? sive: Quot annos habes? (vel aliter: Vide Lexicon Theodiscum-Latinum)
• Hodie est dies decima septima (mensis) Octobris--Utilo 14:27, 13 Martii 2011 (UTC)

OK. I was confuces when I saw "septendecima"... Thank you! (So, the question "Quid est hodies" is right.:

    X:Quid est hodie?
    Y:Hodie est dies....

I'm confused. Is this question right?) Ivan.milicic3510 14:41, 13 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I'd say: Qui dies est hodie? --86.88.177.214 16:12, 13 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Mihi videtur Iulia esse femina! ;)

• Marcus: Quot annos nata es/Quot annos habes?
• Iulia: Viginti annos nata sum. --Aylin 14:50, 13 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Ita est. I didn't see this. Ich habe das nicht gesehen. Thank you! Danke!Ivan.milicic3510 14:57, 13 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Fasti

In my latin book is written that days (Kalendae, Nonae, Idus) comes with ablative (Kalendis Martiis). But in Vicipaedia's calendar I saw accusative (Kalendae Martii). Is it possible that both cases can be with these days? Thanks! Ivan.milicic3510 20:08, 13 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Kalendae isn't accusative. IacobusAmor 12:55, 14 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Lapsus calami! I mean, nominative. Ivan.milicic3510 12:59, 14 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Could you give a link to a particular sentence or passage? IacobusAmor 13:04, 14 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Pagina Vicipaediae --Ivan.milicic3510 19:04, 14 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Kalendae Martii appears to be correctly nominative, but I'd suggest that the verb (sunt) should be singular (est), since the subject, left over from the definition of the lemma, is dies 'day'. IacobusAmor 19:59, 14 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Remember that the ablative can indicate the time that something happens. So we have "Die 28 Mar 2000...": "On 28 Mar 2000..." So "Kalendis Martiis" means "On the March Kalends". Martius, -a, -um is an adjective, but we often see something like "Kalendae Martii". What gender, case, and number is Martii? You might think that since Kalendae is nominative feminine plural, we should use a feminine plural ending: Martiae. But in fact Martii is actually a genitive masculine singular! Why? "Kalendae Martii" is short for "Kalendae mensis Martii": "The Kalends of the March month", but we often just leave mensis out because we know it should be there.

Even so, it is possible to say "idus Martiae" as Cicero did. So either "idus Martii" or "idus Martiae" is accepted, depending on whether you like the sound of "the March Ides" or "the Ides of March", I suppose.

Another note: Kalends, Nones, and Ides are plural words: Kalendae, -arum (f), Nonae, -arum (f), and Idus -uum (f).

I hope that makes sense! And I have only one more thing to say: Cave Idus Martii! --Robert.Baruch 17:02, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Martius was an adjective ('having to do with Mars'), and Martius mensis was the March month. Martius was then taken to be a noun, Martius, -ii, so, for example, the phrase Kalendae Martiae was reinterpreted as Kalendae Martii. At least that's what the examples in Cassell's seem to show. IacobusAmor 17:20, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Kalendae Martiae, Nonae Martiae, Idus Martiae are the classic forms (my dictionary has nothing else till Rhabanus Maurus), Kalendae Martii etc. sometimes is used from the Middle Ages onwards (just put the two versions into Google and compare the search results!).--Utilo 17:42, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Oh, you're right -- the months have both adjective and masculine noun forms. My bad. So Kalendae Ianuariae, Februariae, Martiae, etc. have the feminine plural nominative adjective form, while Kalendae Ianuarii, Februarii, Martii, etc. have the masculine singular genitive noun form. --Robert.Baruch 18:22, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

OK. Gratias vobis ago. I have other question: "fasti cum ante diem". If I put this in the sentence, it looks like it isn't correct (Hodie est ante diem XV. Kalendas Apriles.). And how to translate eg. "ante diem decimum quintum Kalendas Apriles"? Gratias ago! Ivan.milicic3510 19:21, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

There are two ways to write Roman dates. One is "die quarto ante Kalendas", which is easy to translate: "on the fourth day before Kalends". However, you can also say "ante diem quartum Kalends" which means the same thing. --Robert.Baruch 20:13, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

OK. Gratias tibi ago et iterum gratias vobis ago! Ivan.milicic3510 21:02, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

3D films scilicet tribus amplitudinibus pelliculae

dear friends, how would you translate in Latin 3D-movies?, vide paginas sanctum (pellicula) et Mars Needs Moms--Helveticus montanus 18:48, 14 Martii 2011 (UTC)

For 'dimension', Cassell's gives only modus ; so 'three-dimensional movies' = pelliculae trium modorum = pelliculae 3M ? Or has dimensio, -onis become a technical term of enough plasticity as to permit the use of 3D (trium dimensionum) here? IacobusAmor 19:52, 14 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Pelliculae tridimensionales (de adiectivo q.e. "tridimensionalis" cf. e.g. [8]) vel pelliculae 3D. Neander 20:09, 14 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Eeek!!! IacobusAmor 21:35, 14 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Vide etiam: Enumeratio curvarum trium dimensionum et antiquitate: Hyg. astr. 4,11 et 14; pluries in Macrobius: Commentarium in Somnium Scipionis--Utilo 15:53, 15 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Tempestas - quaestio

Qualis tempestas est? Is this correct? Thanks! Ivan.milicic3510 19:30, 15 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I would accept it. "What kind of weather is it?" or (colloquial English) "What's the weather like?" --Robert.Baruch 16:00, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

ambulo

Lucius ad forum ambulat. (sentence from latin lessons at english wikibooks) I think it should be "Lucius foro ambulat." (because in my language we said this with instrumental (latin ablativ)) (If ambulare means walk, then I think this is correct. What do you think?) Gratias multas ago! Ivan.milicic3510 21:14, 15 Martii 2011 (UTC)

The "ablative of the place whence" may come into play:

Lucius forum ambulat. 'Lucius walks across the forum'.

Lucius ad forum ambulat. 'Lucius walks to the forum'.

Lucius foro ambulat. 'Lucius walks away from the forum'.

Perhaps prose requires a preposition (a foro), but someone will surely speak up about it. IacobusAmor 21:42, 15 Martii 2011 (UTC)

OK. Gratias multas tibi ago! Ivan.milicic3510 09:44, 16 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Remember that the origin of the word ablative lies in the verb auferre, reflecting the preposition ab 'away from' and the root lat-, so the pertinent sense of the name of the case is 'pertaining to a carrying away, a bearing away from, a removal', pretty much the opposite of the idea of motion toward something. IacobusAmor 12:27, 16 Martii 2011 (UTC)

It may be that in the Latin lessons at English wikibooks there are bigger problems than this to worry about, but I don't find ambulo ever used in classical Latin with a direction indicated -- neither "from" nor "to". It really meant "walk about", or just "pace" without any destination. That first example is fine -- Lucius forum ambulat, "Lucius walks about the forum" or "Lucius paces the forum". Similarly you can walk (on/along) a road, Lucius viam ambulat, "Lucius walks (on/along) the road". But I have a feeling the second and third examples would surprise a classical Latin speaker. But maybe someone will show that I'm wrong here. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:01, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Well, there is Cicero (Pro P. Quinctio 78):

'Quid? si,' inquit, 'habes eius modi causam, ut hoc tibi planum sit faciendum, neminem esse, qui possit biduo aut summum triduo septingenta milia passuum ambulare, tamenne vereris, ut possis hoc contra Hortensium contendere?' 'Minime,' inquam.

"But what," says he, "if you have such a cause as this, that you have only to make this plain, that there is no one in two or three days at most can walk seven hundred miles? Will you still fear that you will not be able to argue this point against Hortensius?" "No," says I.

So I don't think there's a sense of "walking aimlessly about" for 700 miles. Perhaps it's just walk meaning the action of walking, and not with any particular destination in mind, though. The context is disbelief that anyone can travel 700 miles, the distance from the court to the estate, in under three days. --Robert.Baruch 16:35, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps I wasn't clear: I don't think it has to mean "walking aimlessly about". I did already give the example of "walking a road", and I came across the "walking seven hundred miles" too: but what I didn't come across was any example of ambulo "to" or of ambulo "from". That's the usage that might have surprised Cicero. My guess is that he would have "gone to the Forum on foot", not "walked to the Forum" ... But I could still be wrong. I often am. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:42, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

It may be the French I hear about me that started me wondering about this. The usual French word for walk would be se promener, but it would be barbarous (I think) to say je me promène au marché if what I mean is "I walk to the market". I would say j'y vais à pied, I go there on foot. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:47, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

It's just what I think: ambulo is "pace", "travel", "march", but not just "to go" (Plautus: tu otiosus ambulas; Plautus: abiit ambulatum; Nepos: eodem modo autem ambulat Caesar; Cic, de fin 2,112: ut, si Xerxes, cum tantis classibus tantisque equestribus et pedestribus copiis Hellesponto iuncto Athone perfosso mari ambulavisset terra navigavisset; Plin. 23,26: si statim bina stadia ambulentur).--Utilo 17:03, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Cassell's says Plautus has ambulare in ius 'go to law'—a pattern that would seem to let you say ambulare in forum 'walk into the forum'. The wording of Acts 3:8 would seem to allow intrare in forum ambulans. IacobusAmor 17:37, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Well, hmm. Neither of them is exactly Cicero: Plautus a non-native speaker (though pretty good at it, one must admit) and the Vulgate a literal translation from the Greek.

The Plautine usage is filed by Oxford Latin Dictionary ed. P. G. W. Glare (Oxonii: Clarendon Press, 1968–1982) under "ambulare 7. to betake oneself to, to resort to": the only other example is the elder Seneca, "ambulare in masculos", to resort to the males (for sex, presumably -- I haven't verified the context). I don't myself feel those two very metaphorical cases would be enough to class ambulare among grammatical "verbs of motion".

The Vulgate case is interesting, because in French entrer is indeed a grammatical verb of motion. So (I think) Jerome proves my point. He could say intravit in templum ambulans: he wouldn't say ambulavit in templum. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:13, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

So what's going on is that the English "walk" may be used with a destination, but the Latin "ambulare" does not. Lewis and Short theorize that ambulare comes from am- + bere, where am- is the prefix meaning around or round about, and bere means to go. Thus ambulare is just to go around, which lends credence to the idea that it wouldn't make sense to go around to a particular place. In a particular place, sure, and with the accusative, to cross (Cicero: maria ambulavisset), but not to a destination. Nevertheless, there appear to be plenty of Latin courses where ambulare is used with ad. --Robert.Baruch 19:39, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Well, I'd guess the mother tongue of the authors of those courses is one in which there is no firmly-defined class of "verbs of motion", so the issue didn't occur to them. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:10, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

In any case, it appears that "on foot" (pedes) would be added to specify going somewhere on foot: Macedones sciverunt ne pedes venaretur, the Macedonians knew that he wouldn't hunt on foot. Etiam si pedes incedat, indeed if he advances on foot. --Robert.Baruch 19:39, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Hiatus

Some of us have trouble with phonology and might want to pay attention to the concept of hiatus.

"e Italia"

Could some kind programmer change the reported eighty-eight instances of e Italia to ex Italia for us? Of course that would cure only the hiatus (and when one goes into such texts, one invariably finds other glaring infelicities), but every improvement helps! IacobusAmor 14:47, 16 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Similiter

Similiter the six or so reported instances of e India. IacobusAmor 14:59, 16 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Habemus etiam "e Albania" et "e Aegyto". --Alex1011 15:12, 16 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Et e Armenia. Et nunc e Argentina correxi. IacobusAmor 16:14, 16 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Numeri

Is there some page here about writing large numbers? (exempli gratia: 100 000 000 000 000; is possible to write it?) Gratias ago! Ivan.milicic3510 16:19, 16 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Centum biliones secundum scalas longas vel centum triliones secundum scalas breves. --Alex1011 23:01, 16 Martii 2011 (UTC)

OK. So, it isn't possible to write so big number. Ivan.milicic3510 19:19, 17 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Why not? --Alex1011 10:38, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I mean, it isn't possible to write this number (100 000 000 000 000) with roman numerals. Ivan.milicic3510 19:23, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

That's true, Roman numbers wouldn't do. I think a million is the upper limit. --Alex1011 08:07, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

No, |MMMCMXCIX|MMMCMXCIX = 399 903 999 I think this is it. Ivan.milicic3510 20:16, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

If someone were forced to write 100 000 000 000 000 in Roman numerals, they would probably follow something like Cijferbouck, and write maybe C.M.M.M.M. But I think anyone really using these numbers would just write them out longhand (centum billiones) or in Arabic numerals.

The Romans themselves didn't have words for numbers above 1000 (mille), and instead would use multiples above that, so that 1 000 000 = mille milia (a thousand thousands), and it wasn't until the 14th century that a word for 1 000 000 appeared. They did use |X| for 1 000 000. For any practical purposes for writing larger numbers, there is no sense in using Roman notation. --Robert.Baruch 15:56, 28 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Vide etiam Nomina permagnorum numerorum. So, 10¹⁴ = 100 x 10¹² = centum billiones (one hundred billions). This will confuse speakers of English who don't use the "scalae longae", because an English billion is 10⁹, but there's no help for that:) --Robert.Baruch 16:17, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Cognomen

How to say "last name", is "cognomen" correct? (I found also this: "nomen gentilicium"). Ivan.milicic3510 19:18, 17 Martii 2011 (UTC)

For modern people's last name I would say "cognomen"; and for first name you should say "praenomen". "Nomen gentilicium" is a part of an ancient Roman name: these don't exist as such in modern names. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:38, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

pagina desiderata: vir scientiae

"vir scientiae" mihi displicet; quid de "homo scientiae" sive "scientificus"? An melius ad paginam scientiae movendus est?--Utilo 20:20, 17 Martii 2011 (UTC)

In formula:scien-bio-stipula "virum" in "hominem" mutavi (sunt etiam feminae scientificae!). - Commentatio scientia latam scientiae notionem praebet, tantum astrologiam theologiamque quodam modo (sc. signo interrogationis) segregans. Ceterum in terris linguae Theodiscae, ubi theologia adhuc pars est unversitatis studiorum, etiam variae disciplinae theologicae inter scientias numerantur. - Quis est homo scientiae vel homo scientificus lingua Latina? – Estne homo quamvis scientiarum (sensus latioris) sequens an sensu verbi strictiore (ut puta lingua Anglica) scientiis naturalibus incumbens?--Utilo 17:48, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Responsum non habeo. Notandum est nos categorias de "Scientiarum peritis" olim habuisse, sed mox inter "Eruditos" coniunxisse. Fortasse oportet paginam Eruditus creare ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:27, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

vivere vs. habitare

On german wikibooks (about latin language) I found a text with this sentence: Iulia in oppido magno vivit. I don't know is this correct, but I think it isn't. My dictionary "says" vivere means live, be alive..., so this isn't OK. I think here must be used habitare? Can you say me, am I right? Gratias ago! Ivan.milicic3510 21:01, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Cassell's says you can use vivere to mean dwell (in a place). But I, too, prefer habitare. I suspect that a lot of Latin grammar books are filtered through the author's primary language, and words in one language hardly ever mean exactly one thing in another language... --Robert.Baruch 22:53, 18 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Let's admit that the Latin we write on Vicipaedia, likewise, tends to be filtered through our mother tongues :( With luck, since we have quite a few mother tongues among us, if we edit one another's work the effect lessens and the Latin gets closer to a classical standard.

It's a consolation that exactly the same thing happens on the English Wikipedia too ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:48, 19 Martii 2011 (UTC)

OK. Thank you! Ivan.milicic3510 10:53, 19 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Missing gizmos

When one ventures into unaccustomed territory, one sometimes finds that a lack of localized formulas that would accommodate formulas in Wikipedia obscures our data and mars our graphic design. Above, I mentioned {{Infobox film}} and {{Infobox person}}. I've newly encountered a lack or incorrect accommodation of {{Cite web}}, {{Country data}}, {{Cquote}}, {{Flagicon}}, {{Imdb character}}, {{IMDb title}}, {{Infobox musical artist}}, {{Infobox character}}, {{Infobox single}}, {{Infobox television}}, {{Infobox writer}}, {{Main}}, {{Multiple image}}, {{Nom}}, {{Official}}, {{Official website}}, {{Pending}}, {{Tv.com}}, et {{Won}}. Many of these are found in Wizards of Waverly Place. Their localization would enhance that article and many more to come. ¶ Also, is there any way automatically to convert dates, as from "April 17, 1984" to "17 Aprilis 1984"? IacobusAmor 15:52, 19 Martii 2011 (UTC)

We already have {{Cite web}}. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:24, 19 Martii 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't always work right. Similarly, we have {{Data hominis}} for {{Persondata}}, but it doesn't have analogs for all the lines of the English version. IacobusAmor 17:42, 19 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I start a lot of articles about writers, and I'm opposed to "infobox writer" (I know that some on en:wiki agree with me!) because it encourages the stating as truths of matters that need discussion (e.g. influences). I'm not convinced that person infoboxes are needed at all: if they are, let them state things that (usually) can be pinned down to a certainty, as our familiar modest infobox already does. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:52, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

One that would print, if somebody enabled it to, would have a picture and this text:

Born David Clayton Henrie

July 11, 1989 (1989-07-11) (age 21)

Los Angeles, California, U.S.

Occupation Actor, rally driver

Years active 2002–present

Website

http://www.davidhenrie.com

{{Data hominis}} doesn't seem to allow for the place of residence, the occupation, the dates of the career, and the website. Why should those facts be suppressed? Also, per contra, {{Data hominis}} allows for "nationalitas," a fact you like to downplay. ;) IacobusAmor 21:32, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

The "flagicon" and "countrydata" templates (there are many) seem intended to deposit little flags all over the place. I'm afraid I'm against you there too. Sorry, Iacobe. One reason I'm at Vicipaedia is because I'm an anti-nationalist: I don't like little flags. So what I do when I find such templates encrusting a bit of information is to remove them like diseased wood, allowing the information within to blossom. Text is beautiful! I recommend you to do the same. But there we go, some will think otherwise ...

"Persondata" is a quite different issue: it's meant for housekeeping, not for the average punter, and no one could say it improves the look of the page! I have no opinion yet. I would like to know whether UV has a view about "Persondata". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:52, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

en:Template:Persondata is modeled after de:Template:Personendaten that contains basic data about an individual (just name, profession/claim to fame, and date and place of birth and death) for use with external tools. For example, bots on de.wikipedia automatically update the comprehensive lists of all articles about persons using the profession/claim to fame from :de:Template:Personendaten (see e. g. de:Liste der Biografien/Je). Such information is great if it is implemented throughout all articles (as it is on de.wikipedia) but is rather useless if it is implemented in a small percentage of articles only. Unless someone volunteers to add this template to all >17 000 articles about individuals that we have and to maintain it in the future, I would suggest to remove it from the sole article where it is currently used. --UV 20:28, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

In general, to permit Vicipaedia to grow, coding should permit as much automatic updating as possible. The fewer human interventions, the better. IacobusAmor 23:42, 22 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Anglice cast ?

Is there a way of indicating the cast of a production other than as dramatis personae ? The latter usually denotes the characters of a play, but in modern English use, cast often denotes those characters as embodied by specific actors. An "original-cast recording" will have the voices of the unique set of actors who performed in the first production, but of course the dramatis personae will recur from production to production. IacobusAmor 17:42, 19 Martii 2011 (UTC)

To begin with, it might be stimulating to know how cast, in the above-mentioned acceptation, is expressed in, say, German, French, Italian, Spanish, etc. Who knows? …–Neander 18:39, 19 Martii 2011 (UTC)

If it helps, a succinct dictionary-definition is "the set of actors in a dramatic production" (i.e., not the roles they play). IacobusAmor 19:00, 19 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Faute de mieux, I'd say, tentatively, (partium) actores. But still I'd like to know whether other languages have a lexical unit corresponding to cast. In a way, this is a Sapir-Whorfian question. …–Neander 19:35, 19 Martii 2011 (UTC)

French distribution ; German Besetzung, Rollenverteilung ; Spanish reparto. It's sometimes equivalent to English company, but a company is often a more-permanent body, which mounts play after play with the same actors (some being replaced as time goes on), rather than a single production. For actors starring in recurring roles in a television series, the word company would seem apt—except that the word typically used for their ensemble is cast. IacobusAmor 19:58, 19 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I wrote this just before Iacobus published his comment:

In French it's distribution (with an intended of the roles). How about partitio / distributio / etc (partium), then? Mattie 20:03, 19 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Traupman does have 'distributio partium in singulos actores' for 'cast of characters'. —Mucius Tever 16:56, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. Adding "of characters" makes it seem equivalent to dramatis personae, rather than to the desired sense: cast (of people playing parts, not the parts themselves). IacobusAmor 12:35, 22 Martii 2011 (UTC)

"Partitio histrionum"? Mattie 18:18, 22 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Stars

No, this is the other kind of star. I think the best lists of stars are on the Italian Wikipedia, and I think it would be easy and useful to copy them across. The star names themselves would suit us without any alteration in nearly every case. If anyone's interested, please look at the example at Stellae Arietis and correct if necessary the words I have used in the top line and in the notes column. Any comments welcome. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:22, 19 Martii 2011 (UTC)

"Hic habes" -> "Ecce"? --Robert.Baruch 15:28, 28 Martii 2011 (UTC)

"planetam habet" -> "planeta inventa"? Because maybe "it has a planet" implies the others don't... at least that was my first deranged thought. --Robert.Baruch 15:31, 28 Martii 2011 (UTC)

It's a straight translation of the Italian "ha un pianeta" which corresponds to the English "has a planet" (see here for example), so the implication didn't seem to worry the Italian or English speakers ... However, I now have to look through the "notes" field and make manual corrections, so I could change this as I go ...

Interested in doing another batch of asteroids? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:44, 29 Martii 2011 (UTC)

"Social media"

Permultae Vicipaediae discrimen notant inter mass media, quae media communicationis socialis, vel media publica, vulgaria, vulgatoria appellamus, et social media, de quibus neque habemus paginam neque appellationem. Mihi videtur maximum discrimen inter ambo genera mediorum esse continentia ab usoribus facta "mediorum socialium", contra "mass media" cuius continentia non fit ab usoribus. "Media communicationis socialis" non igitur sit melius nomen pro social media? Mattie 20:24, 19 Martii 2011 (UTC)

ipsorum

I decided to use some other texts, so I use a part of C. IVLI CAESARIS COMMENTARIORVM DE BELLO GALLICO LIBER PRIMVS. But I don't know how to translate ipsorum. Here's the full sentence:

Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae, aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur.

I understand everthing, only ipsorum not. Thanks a lot! Ivan.milicic3510 20:35, 19 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Now I know. On latin wikipedia on the page about Galli, I klicked on English, and I found translation.

All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called Celts, in ours Gauls, the third. Ivan.milicic3510 20:48, 19 Martii 2011 (UTC)

That's it! You'll see, Latin gets easier and easier :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:55, 19 Martii 2011 (UTC)

"nomen a Ameghino"

The quaerere box says we have seventeen instances of this hiatus. Would some kind programmer fix it? IacobusAmor 00:10, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

centum

It's indeclinable. So how do we translate, for example, "hundreds of birds"? IacobusAmor 01:14, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Multa centena avium. –…–Neander 01:34, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Ah, that's cool! ;) IacobusAmor 02:01, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Is there also such a thing as "tens of birds", "scores of birds", "tens of thousands of birds"? What is the general pattern? I don't find deceni, -ae, -a in my dictionary. --Robert.Baruch 15:40, 28 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Ten seems to be a special case: deni, -ae, -a. IacobusAmor 17:29, 28 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks! --Robert.Baruch 13:32, 29 Martii 2011 (UTC)

fortissimi

Fortis has two meaning: brave and strong. What would you use in this sentence: (Belgae, Aquitani, ipsorum lingua Celtae, Latina Galli)

Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae...

(google translation "says": Of all these, Belgians are the bravest...) Thanks! Ivan.milicic3510 09:49, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Look at the context: Caesar goes on to say that the Belgians are fortissimi because they are farthest from civilization and the refinement of Rome, because merchants don't visit them giving them stuff that makes the mind effeminate, and because they're always fighting with the Germans. Now, does that make you brave or strong? And does strong mean physically strong or emotionally strong? The answer is, fortis means all of these things. As mentioned before, the words in languages never map one-to-one. In any case, most translators seem to have chosen brave rather than strong. --Robert.Baruch 17:45, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I agree -- it's all one meaning, but it takes (at least) two English words to catch it. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:20, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Fortitudinous would seem to catch both senses. IacobusAmor 18:29, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Nice one. I haven't often said it. I will now. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:34, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Gratias vobis ago! Ivan.milicic3510 18:35, 20 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Praemium

Videte, O amici, propositionem meam ad pedem huius paginae inscriptam: Disputatio Vicipaediae:Praemia Vicipaedianis. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:53, 21 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Angry Birds contra Vicipaediam

Acerba nuntia! "The total number of hours consumed by Angry Birds players world-wide is roughly 200 million minutes a DAY, which translates into 1.2 billion hours a year. To compare, all person-hours spent creating and updating Wikipedia totals about 100 million hours over the entire life span of Wikipedia." (Fons hic.) IacobusAmor 23:33, 22 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Profecto Vicipaedia non est ludus. Et secundum Reality is Broken, homines ludos maior quam realitatem diligunt. Si Ludus Vicipaediae sit, fortasse plures homines ludat. --Robert.Baruch 15:02, 28 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Finally majoring in Latin

Salvete amici. Felicissimus sum, I am finally a Latin major, it's one of my two. I would have typed that in Latin but I'm not sure as to what academic major is in Latin. On the other side of languages, I have a Sanskrit book coming. Bandit V. 23:49, 26 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Macte! Latinam procedentem te hortor! Licet mihi reddere:

I am finally a Latin major, it's one of my two.

Denique/Tandem mihi cursus magis est Latina, qua est alter ex duobus. (Finally, to me, a major course is latin which is one of two. )--Jondel 02:25, 27 Martii 2011 (UTC)

. . . Latina, quae est altera? IacobusAmor 10:34, 27 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Sanscrit? Non certus sum.--Jondel 10:59, 27 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Altera feminine of alter, one of two (no?) Maybe Bandit would like to say latin is one major the other is (Sanskrit?)--Jondel 10:55, 27 Martii 2011 (UTC)

It should be altera. Tandem mihi cursus magis est Latina, qua est altera ex duobus.--Jondel 10:59, 27 Martii 2011 (UTC)

On the other side of languages, I have a Sanskrit book coming.

Extra linguas, mihi, liber Sanscritae venit.--Jondel 04:22, 27 Martii 2011 (UTC)

My other major is communication, with a focus on intercultural and global, Sanskrit is just another language I'm going to start soon, but just the alphabet so far. I'm sorry for the ambiguity in my post. Bandit V. 18:20, 27 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Pol desine. Placemus autem tibi et omnibus adiuvare.--Jondel 12:01, 31 Martii 2011 (UTC)

river

Is there any difference between amnis, flumen and fluvius? Ivan.milicic3510 13:32, 27 Martii 2011 (UTC)

According to Hermann Menge, Lateinische Synonymik § 245, fluvius is the general geographical term for 'river' as opposed to other geographical terms such as mare, lacus, rivus, mons, etc. In classical Latin, it lacks any connotation with flowing, and so *adverso fluvio would be an incorrect expression; neither is fluvius used figuratively. Flumen denotes 'a flowing (of) water'. So, flumen is 'stream, flood'; therefore, adverso flumine is all right. Flumen is also used figuratively: orationis flumen 'fluency of speech'. Amnis denotes 'river' and connotes some impressive feature connected with it, e.g. breadth, depth, navigability, or so. ¶ The thing to bear in mind is that the above differentiae involve core-meanings and default uses. Anyone with a strong intention to find counter-examples will probably be gladdened by their findings, but this would be beyond the point. ∞∞ Neander 17:33, 27 Martii 2011 (UTC)

OK. Thanks! Ivan.milicic3510 09:21, 28 Martii 2011 (UTC)

quisquis, quidquid

How to declinate them?78.3.229.29 18:57, 27 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I've never actually seen them declined. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, Bandit V. 03:08, 28 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Vide Victionarium --SECUNDUS ZEPHYRUS 06:27, 28 Martii 2011 (UTC)

OK. Thanks!Ivan.milicic3510 09:21, 28 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I feel particularly stupid now. Bandit V. 18:50, 30 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Or now quisquis. --Alex1011 19:48, 30 Martii 2011 (UTC)

No need to feel stupid, Bandit! I am afraid the victionary tables are misleading: the only forms of this word that were regularly used are quisquis, quidquid (or quicquid) and quoquo (in the expression 'quoquo modo'). For other cases better use 'quicumque', 'quaecumque', 'quodcumque' instead. --Fabullus 06:59, 31 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Don't forget cuiuscuius. --Alex1011 11:52, 31 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Embolium contra episodium

Pro verbo Anglico "episode," quomodo inter se discrepant verba embolium (exempli gratia, in commentario David Clayton Henrie) et episodium (in Mahabharatum). Cassell's ait "episode" solum est embolium, sed embolium ipsum est 'a dramatic interlude'; et Cassell's cognitum verbi episodii non habet. IacobusAmor 14:21, 28 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Puto verbum episode esse ex Graeca, et non significavit a part of a TV/radio series ante adventum radiophoniae. Num verbum episodium fontem habet? --Robert.Baruch 15:14, 28 Martii 2011 (UTC)

According to Merriam-Webster the part of an ancient Greek tragedy between two choric songs; Greek epeisodion, from neuter of epeisodios coming in besides, from epi- + eisodios coming in, from eis into (akin to Greek en in) + hodos road, journey--Utilo 21:30, 28 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's the primitive & strict sense—which, except in specialized contexts, isn't found in modern English. Commonplace or usual senses of the English word episode include 'one of a series of loosely connected stories or scenes', 'the part of a serial presented at one performance', and 'a digressive subdivision in a musical composition'. What's the best rendering of those concepts in Latin? IacobusAmor 23:32, 28 Martii 2011 (UTC)

It's odd. "Episodium" and "embolium" are both Greek words etymologically. "Embolium" is found in classical Latin (twice, both Cicero, who liked to use Greek words) but not in this sense in surviving Greek: the word does exist in Greek, but with totally different meanings. "Episodium", contrariwise, is found in Greek but not in classical Latin: it is, however, used in Latinitas recentior, as the footnote at Mahabharatum shows.

The nagging questions are, why did Cicero choose "embolium", and where did he get it from?

As already said above, the ancient sense of both words was more like "interlude" or "digression" than what we now think of as an "episode". I'm not sure that any word used in classical Latin has precisely that modern sense. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:21, 29 Martii 2011 (UTC)

The LRL has Italian episodio = Latin 1. narratio orationi inserta (Syn: digressio), 2. res minor (in aliquo eventu). I suppose one could always use pars seriei for the modern usage? I do not think that even the Latinitas recentior version of episodium corresponds to the English episode, since all those episodium references occur before the advent of television. Unless we want to say that since other languages grabbed "episode" for part of a series, Latin would have, too? --Robert.Baruch 13:06, 29 Martii 2011 (UTC)

You're right, even the recentior usage at Mahabharatum doesn't correspond to our modern "episode". The story of Nala, to which it refers, is more like a "digression", it's a story told within the story. The successive "episodes" in Ovid's Metamorphoses may resemble this, but the successive episodes of The Simpsons don't. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:14, 29 Martii 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, perhaps we've lost sight of the "greater story" in television and radio series... we often say that the episodes in a series take place in a universe, and we also talk of story arcs which cover many episodes. Perhaps there is the greater story of that universe, even if that greater story is never referenced (e.g. in The Simpsons). In that sense, all episodes really are stories (or digressions) within stories, and so maybe embolium is the best word. Which brings us back to the original question: embolium or episodium? There is some nice explanation of what an Episodium is here (1668) and here (1561) so we do have about 500 years usage for that word, and indicating that it's just Latinization of a whole bunch of related Greek terms: Episodium, Choricum, Prologum, Exodium. Prologus and Epilogus were used classically (Cic, Quint, Ter), so why not just take the whole raft of terms? :) --Robert.Baruch 13:59, 29 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Each pellicula in the Star Wars series seems (to me) like a genuine pars seriei, but episodes of TV sitcoms seem somewhat different, possibly because each series has so many more of them, and each of such episodes tells so tiny a story. Maybe noster Neander will wander by and make a suggestion. It's not an inconsequential issue, because thousands of TV series will eventually have their own articles, and the concept of an episode in them will necessarily turn up. Some such episodes may even deserve their own articles—like, for example "Lucy Does a TV Commercial." ¶ Typographically, I hope, everyone agrees: "Double Quotation Marks, Roman Type, and Display-Style Capitalization" for the titles of episodes, and Italics and Display-Style Capitalization for the titles of series. IacobusAmor 14:29, 29 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Sitcom

Is situation comedy best rendered as comoedia de statu rerum ? or is a pithier term available? Would using sitcom itself (n., indecl.) be OK? IacobusAmor 14:29, 29 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Stella constantiae/GRATIA AGO

Socii amatis, vobis gratia ago propter praemii Stella Constantiae dationem --Helveticus montanus 17:55, 29 Martii 2011 (UTC)

coniunctiones

Is there any difference between some "coniunctiones", eg. et, -que, atque, ac||etiam, quoque||aut, vel, -ve, sive, seu||sed, verum, vero, autem et cetera? So, is correct to write: eg. Lucia et Marcus discimus., Luciaque Marcus discimus.,Lucia ac Marcus discimus., Lucia atque Marcus discimus. or eg. Didici sed Lucius non didici., Didici verum Lucius non didici., Didici vero Lucius non didici., Didici autem Lucius non didici. Thanks a lot! Ivan.milicic3510 19:02, 29 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Each has its own implications; -que, however, attaches not to the first term, but to the second: Lucia Marcusque discimus 'We, Lucia and Marcus, learn'. IacobusAmor 21:37, 29 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Similarly -ve: Lucia Marcusve discipulus tuus erit, "Your student will be Lucia or Marcus".

Quoque and autem don't join on to a word, but they normally follow the first word of the phrase or clause to which they apply: "Didici; Lucius autem non didicit". "I learned, but Lucius did not learn". "Didici; Lucius quoque didicit" "I learned, and Lucius learned too". Your sentences Luciaque Marcus discimus, Didici autem Lucius non didici[t] don't follow the pattern explained by Iacobus and myself here; for that reason they are meaningless. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:59, 30 Martii 2011 (UTC)

OK. Gratias vobis multas ago! Ivan.milicic3510 17:58, 30 Martii 2011 (UTC)

first and last name

How to say some name (first or last) in latin? Does it have to be translated to latin (adding -us, or -a) eg. Ivan = Ivanus, (or Ivanes, 5th declination, or something different) or just Ivan? Ivan.milicic3510 18:18, 30 Martii 2011 (UTC)

'Ivan' = Ioannes. IacobusAmor 18:40, 30 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I know that. (or Ianus - Ianus Pannonius). But, if someone has some different name, eg. some english names like Malcolm, or croatian like Domagoj... Ivan.milicic3510 19:34, 30 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Yes, in Latin classes people like to use Latin names. If you want suggestions you can look at Index praenominum - most of those are used on Vicipaedia. If you want more suggestions, including many that we don't use here, look at Usor:Gualterius de Reptilibus/Index nominum Latine redditorum. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:44, 30 Martii 2011 (UTC)

OK. Thanks! Ivan.milicic3510 08:49, 31 Martii 2011 (UTC)