Salve, Mattie!

Gratus in Vicipaediam Latinam acciperis! Ob contributa tua gratias agimus speramusque te delectari posse et manere velle.

Cum Vicipaedia nostra parva humilisque sit, paucae et exiguae sunt paginae auxilii, a quibus hortamur te ut incipias:

Si plura de moribus et institutis Vicipaedianis scire vis, tibi suademus, roges in nostra Taberna, vel roges unum ex magistratibus directe.

In paginis encyclopaedicis mos noster non est nomen dare, sed in paginis disputationis memento editis tuis nomen subscribere, litteris impressis --~~~~, quibus insertis nomen tuum et dies apparebit. Quamquam vero in paginis ipsis nisi lingua Latina uti non licet, in paginis disputationum qualibet lingua scribi solet. Quodsi quid interrogare velis, vel Taberna vel pagina disputationis mea tibi patebit. Ave! Spero te "Vicipaedianum" fieri velle! --Xaverius 18:14, 11 Aprilis 2010 (UTC)Reply



Salve Mattie!

Thanks for all your contributions to Vicipaedia so far! I see that you have been contributing a lot to the cinematographia area (which is an area I like to contribute to, too). One thing I would like to mention--in case you haven't heard of it--is "1000 pages". Basically, all the wikis are ranked based on 1000 certain topics which are deemed "most important". More info here. Basically, if there are any articles there that interest you, it will help our entire project by adding to the respective Latin article.

Also, I was reading your pagina usoris (ego etiam cinematographicum moderatorem esse volo!), and I think you might have a few typos. But I could be wrong! I'm not being mean, I just figured that since you are self-taught, you might have not realized?

Keep up the good work!--SECUNDUS ZEPHYRUS 01:51, 29 Iunii 2010 (UTC)Reply

Well, I think that "Vicipaediam puto bonus locus esse..." is supposed to losely mean "I think Vicipaedia is a good place to...", but in this case bonus and locus should be in the same case as Vicipaediam. I.e. "Vicipaediam puto bonum locum esse..."
And also the sentence "Recenter linguam, Mattismus appellata, fingere laboro." has the same problem--"Mattismus appellata" should be in the same case as "linguam" because they are an apposition. So I would probably write it like this: "Recenter linguam, "Mattismus" appellatam, fingere laboro."
Also, I don't that quandod or vestutior are words. I couldn't find them in my dictionaries... --SECUNDUS ZEPHYRUS 23:23, 29 Iunii 2010 (UTC)Reply



Bene fecisti, mi Mattie, in nostram Vicipaediam defendendo. Maeste tantum te recepisse contumelias ab usoribus nimis puerilibus iactas. Spero me Andreanque omnia iam correxisse. Valeas. -- Ioscius 09:50, 29 Novembris 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Mr. Mattie


Hello, Mr. Mattie. I am Erico, from Brazil. I entered this site recently and included "Past Masters" band in its pages. I want to thank you by correcting it, and by putting a "Grex Musicus", since this band, that I am a big fan, uses the same name of the famous Beatles album.

I am very surprise so many corrections were made in my humble text, and I hope I can contribute with more themes, mainly Brazilian. Sorry by my poor Latin, but since College times I use Latin only for reading, not writting.

One more time, thank you very much, and if you have time, I always have doubts in Latin, maybe you could help me.

Erico Molero. São Paulo, Brazil.

Punctuation in headings


You won't mind me saying ... it's as well not to copy punctuation from a word-processor text into a Wikipedia heading. The resulting heading of J'accuse, and also the link to French Wikisource, have needed some editing ... the punctuated text may look OK and yet be impossible for someone else to type. I think it's OK now :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:51, 2 Februarii 2011 (UTC)Reply

Well, looking at the history, I don't know whether you got the heading from word-processor text or not. So forgive me if I made a false assumption. But it wasn't possible to find the page by typing the name. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:33, 2 Februarii 2011 (UTC)Reply
Mmm, je comprends ton point, et je n'ai pas d'opinion sur les points de suspension, mais il me semble que l'apostrophe courbée (J’accuse) soit visuellement supérieure à la droite (J'accuse). D'ailleurs, on n'aurait qu'à faire un redirect et tout irait bien, non ? C'est le cas avec The King's Speech, par exemple.
And, you're right, I didn't get the characters from a word-processor; I'm just picky with ponctuation =)  — Mattie 16:51, 2 Februarii 2011 (UTC)Reply
akjufirohtjr I hope it's OK I wrote in French? I'm constantly surrounded by English, I think you'll understand, it's just a habit to use French whenever I can. — Mattie 17:09, 2 Februarii 2011 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for your reply. Of course, French is fine! I think my point is (a) that with some fonts it is difficult to see the differences (that was what surprised me with the three dots) and also (b) it is better to have pagenames that are easy for everyone to type. But, yes, I agree that the curved apostrophe looks better -- those cheap whiskies sold in France would look so much better if they were "Sir Edward's" with a curved apostrophe! I also agree that so long as a redirect is made, there is no big problem. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:06, 2 Februarii 2011 (UTC)Reply
In the most respected traditional typography, suspension points are separated with a thinspace (. . .) or even a whole space (. . .), and are not printed unspaced (...). In the first edition of Zola's text, as given in the article, the spacing approximates the former (. . . !). (Similarly, colons, semicolons, and such are preceded by a small space when typeset, or a whole space when typewritten, as still often seen in France.) Microsoft Word, by promulgating the use of a single key to produce three unspaced dots, has attacked the former standard. IacobusAmor 18:19, 2 Februarii 2011 (UTC)Reply
On my computer, the dots in "…" (one character) actually look a bit more widely spaced than in "..." (three unspaced dots) when the font's big enough, as in Wikipedia titles. — Mattie 18:35, 2 Februarii 2011 (UTC)Reply
Shall we move J'accuse...! to J’accuse...!, then? Perhaps the ellipsis I'd originally put was overdoing it, but again, the curved apostrophe's better. — Mattie 18:28, 2 Februarii 2011 (UTC)Reply
I still prefer the simple apostrophe for Wikipedia headings because it is easy to type: I make a lot of interwiki links, and in that activity the curved apostrophes used on the Dutch wiki are a big nuisance. Anyway, I've asked for comments: let's see what others think. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:54, 2 Februarii 2011 (UTC)Reply
I'd prefer to use the simple apostrophe too. IacobusAmor 18:58, 2 Februarii 2011 (UTC)Reply
Good idea! I think it's also worth keeping in mind that this is the Latin Wikipedia, which means apostrophes aren't used all that often - only in foreign words, really. So whatever we choose, it won't make much of a difference. I mean, if we decide in favour of the curved apostrophe, it shouldn't make too much of a mess. — Mattie 19:01, 2 Februarii 2011 (UTC)Reply
In my view, we should look at the typesetting rules of the language that surrounds the punctuation in question. So, for an apostrophe within a French phrase, we should apply French customs. For Latin text (articles etc.), we decided long ago (as I understand that very brief discussion) to use not „German style quotation marks“ nor “English style quotation marks” nor « French style guillemets », but "straight quotation marks". --UV 21:22, 2 Februarii 2011 (UTC)Reply
Hmm, yes ... here we're talking about the single apostrophe that marks an ellipsis (as in "J'accuse" or "we're going home" or "'s Gravenhage". I believe this is not so much a difference between one language and another, more the difference between typewriter style and printed style.
I agree with Mattie that this is a minor issue for us, since the apostrophe is never used in this way in Latin. Theoretically the decision we make could apply to all cases where a Vicipaedia pagename consists of a foreign phrase that contains an apostrophe -- like J'accuse...! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:08, 3 Februarii 2011 (UTC)Reply
Also, I was only arguing that the curved one should be used in titles. The text is big, so the difference is obvious. The simple apostrophe makes it look cheap, I find. — Mattie 22:46, 3 Februarii 2011 (UTC)Reply



Excuse-moi si j'ai insisté trop ... Ce que je voulais dire, et que je n'ai pas dit, est que j'admire beaucoup ce que tu es en train de faire à la page Grammatica Cambrica. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:12, 8 Augusti 2011 (UTC)Reply

=) Merci pour le message, il m'a beaucoup fait sourire. Ne t'inquiète surtout pas — je m'excuse aussi, j'ai trop insisté, et tu avais sans doute raison. Je pense que le fait qu'une atrocité comme "Wallica" soit mentionnée dans la page est ce qui m'a poussé à débattre davantage ... je n'aime pas les W en latin !
Je suis content que ma page se soit fait remarquer ! Je ne peux pas prendre trop de crédit, compte tenu que je ne fais que traduire, mais bon, c'est quand même un défi pour moi :) Si jamais tu vois des erreurs dans la grammaire, et si tu as le temps, n'hésite surtout pas de les corriger, je ne serais pas du tout insulté. N'ayant jamais été instruit en latin, c'est difficile d'avoir une idée claire de ma latinité. Mattie 03:04, 9 Augusti 2011 (UTC)Reply
Hmm, au sujet du W je comprends bien. Alors j'ai trouvé quelques bonnes citations pour "lingua Vallica", pas beaucoup mais quand même ... Cet après-midi j'insérerai cette version du nom dans la première phrase. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:14, 9 Augusti 2011 (UTC)Reply

aller à l'université


Je vois que tu écris dans la Disputatio de pagina mensis que tu es en train de faire application aux universités -- Tufts est assez loin de Winnipeg, je sais, mais les classicistes y sont bienvenus; nous venons en effet d' accueiller une nouvelle professeur qui avait enseigné a l'Université de Manitoba, alors tu ne serais pas seul ici!  :-) Comme Andrew je te souhaite la bonne fortune. A. Mahoney 14:26, 27 Septembris 2011 (UTC)Reply

Bonsoir, A. Mahoney ! Merci pour le message. :) Pour l'instant, je ne sais pas trop où j'irai étudier, car je ne sais pas combien d'argent je recevrai en bourses. L'université du Manitoba que tu as mentionnée est présentement mon premier choix, car en plus de pouvoir y bicycler, on y enseigne le grec ancien et c'est une langue que je veux vraiment étudier. Je me sens comme si je ne connais que la moitié du latin, puisque j'ignore la langue des Grecs, dont culture était tellement liée à celle des Romains ! Cela étant dit, m'en aller à l'étranger pour l'uni ne devrait pas poser de problème, c'est même une idée très excitante pour moi ; mais malheureusement, les universités aux États-Unis coûtent beaucoup trop cher. J'espère que tu te portes bien, et merci encore pour la suggestion! Mattie 01:34, 28 Septembris 2011 (UTC)Reply
Eh bien, Mattie, quelle université enfin as-tu choisie? J'suis curieuse! A. Mahoney (disputatio) 16:45, 27 Augusti 2012 (UTC)Reply
U of W! :D Je suis très excité d'y aller. Petites classes, centre-ville, radicalisme (tout le monde là-bas est un hipster, l'université suit Kyoto, et selon Chris Hedges, le département d'économie est "uniformément marxiste"), ... Il paraît que le département de linguistique est très petit (genre chaleureux, pas incompétant). Je suis déçu que ma classe d'ojibwé ait été annulée, mais j'ai trouvé des cours ailleurs. J'ai hâte à septembre! Mattie (disputatio); 16:59, 27 Augusti 2012 (UTC)Reply
Très bien -- je te fèlicite! Et aussi d'être nommé Magistratus Vicipaediae, bien sûr. :-) A. Mahoney (disputatio) 17:33, 27 Augusti 2012 (UTC)Reply
Merci, et félicitations à toi aussi! Mattie (disputatio) 17:35, 27 Augusti 2012 (UTC)Reply



I saw you are online. So I wanted to ask you a question. :-)

What does "opera vos liberabit" means? Thanks in advance!-- 18:09, 18 Octobris 2011 (UTC)Reply

Hey, I must have gone offline by the time you wrote this because I've just seen it :) "Opera vos liberabit" seems like "work will set you free" to me. Hope this helps. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask! Mattie 21:46, 18 Octobris 2011 (UTC)Reply
It might be a version, though not a very good one, of the motto that appeared over the gateway of Nazi concentration camps: "de:Arbeit macht frei". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:47, 26 Octobris 2011 (UTC)Reply
Since the verb is singular, we have to take opera for a singular noun, possibly the musical genre, so: 'Opera will set you free'! Maybe some degree of irony is involved. IacobusAmor 18:57, 26 Octobris 2011 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps this isn't classically correct, but I thought opera (f. sg.) could mean work, labour, as stated in Wiktionary -- thus my above translation. Mattie 22:02, 26 Octobris 2011 (UTC)Reply
Yes, that's another possibility, but then you lose the humour, because the result is merely a platitude—and, as Andrew points out, a historically nasty one at that. IacobusAmor 22:32, 26 Octobris 2011 (UTC)Reply
Haha, ok, I just wanted to make sure my Latin wasn't off-track :) Mattie 22:34, 26 Octobris 2011 (UTC)Reply
Taking up my comment above, some web pages seem to say that the German motto was originally a translation from Latin. It's a fact that one accurate Latin rendering (labor liberat) is snappier than the German. There is an implication, on a couple of web pages, that this phrase was used in some ancient text or context, but I can't confirm it. I might ask on the Taberna if anyone knows more. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:04, 27 Octobris 2011 (UTC)Reply
In Plauti Asinaria 659, Argyrippus iuvenis ait: Quin tu labore liberas te atque istam imponis in me? Num contextum historicum locutioni, cuius fontem hic venamur, praebeat, nescio. Neander 11:13, 27 Octobris 2011 (UTC)Reply

responsio de rebus academicis


Salvus sis, o Mattie! You asked (apud me) about the professorial life and, yes, that is what I do. It's a big question. A university professor needs a PhD, so you're looking at some 6-10 years of graduate school after university. First of all, though, you'll want a solid preparation in Latin and Greek -- which I gather you'll enjoy doing anyway. Your Latin is already strong, so you'd be taking courses in which you'd read and discuss classical texts. In most departments that discussion will take place in the vernacular, and will begin by translating the Latin; I don't do that in my own classes, but most people do. It's understood that most people nowadays begin Greek at university, so you're not behind on that, and you'll pick it up quickly enough.

Your school will require a variety of courses alongside language classes: in my department, for example, classics majors take a semester each of Greek history and Roman history, survey courses on literature (in translation), and often an introduction to classical archaeology. The best preparation for graduate school is to have read a ton of canonical classical literature, preferably in the original, though people generally read a fair amount in translation as well. Your department may have a reading list, and you might also look at the lists for various graduate departments, which are often available on line.

Then you go to grad school, which takes a minimum of four years and normally more like six; you take a few more courses, but mostly you're working independently, passing comprehensive exams, and writing a book.

But you should be aware that there are essentially no jobs available in classics. There are jobs for secondary-school teachers of Latin (and, at least here in New England, possibly also Greek), but it's very difficult to get a college teaching job in any area of the humanities. Look around at placement results -- the APA compiles tables for the US job market, and I assume SCEC does the same for Canada. At least here in the US there are something like 200 candidates for 50-100 jobs in classics in a typical year, nation wide.

What one does in such a job depends on what kind of school you're in and what kind of position you have. In a research university, faculty are expected to do research. In classics, that means writing articles in peer-reviewed journals, writing an occasional book, and also helping out with the peer review process. In a prestigious school, a faculty member should write a book in the first half-dozen years on the job (in some schools two books in that period), as a pre-condition for being awarded tenure; then the professor should write at least one more as part of earning a promotion from "associate professor" to "professor" tout court. In a less prestigious school, a handful of good articles may be adequate for promotion. In addition, in schools that primarily serve undergrads rather than grad students, or that don't have pretension to being research schools, faculty will teach more. A typical load at a research university is two courses each term, none in the summer; at a two-year school or community college, the load may be five per term, one or two more in the summer.

Many faculty are not eligible for tenure and many are not even employed full time -- I'm not on the tenure track, and after a dozen years on the faculty here I have only just recently been promoted to full-time status. In general, non-tenure-track faculty aren't required to do research, but often do so anyway in hopes of building a good curriculum vitae and getting a better job elsewhere. But, as a rule, we don't get support from our universities for research; that support would include money to go to conferences, or to go to far-away libraries or sites. And we may teach more than the tenure-track faculty.

The other component of a faculty job is broadly called "service," and mostly means sitting on committees to keep the university functioning; it also includes service to the national and regional disciplinary organizations (like my own beloved Societas Classica Novae Angliae), advising students, and generally being useful. This can be fun but can also turn into a time-sink.

Here's what my own semester looks like this term. I'm teaching elementary Greek, elementary Sanskrit, intermediate Sanskrit, advanced Sanskrit, Gauss's Disquisitiones Arithmeticae, and the survey of Greek literature in translation. Of these the first and last are my official teaching load, and the other four are independent study courses, tutorials arranged between me and the students; they do count as normal classes in the students' schedules. This mechanism means we can offer anything at all that a student wants to take, if there's someone willing and able to teach it. I am also advising a group of first-year students, helping out with my department's revision of requirements for our MA program, and serving on an awards committee for CANE and a committee on translations for the APA. I've given one invited scholarly address and have another coming up this week; I have refereed 3 papers in the past month; I've written a book review and have another book for review arriving any day now. This is more teaching than most Tufts faculty do, and perhaps a bit less writing, but I do more writing in semesters when I'm not teaching quite so much. I also teach linguistics, though my primary training is in classics. In our linguistics program we have people from psychology, philosophy, the language departments, and even computer science, and all of those fields intersect with linguistics one way or another.

As a rule, I discourage undergrads from considering graduate school simply because the prospects are so grim. You need not only talent, ambition, and drive, but also a large measure of luck. But I always encourage people to study classics at university because it's wonderful stuff, and good preparation for any career you might later take up: I've had students go on in all the standard medieval learned professions (medicine, law, and theology), as well as ordinary business-type jobs. Worrying about grad school can come a bit later.

Am I answering the right questions? A. Mahoney 20:43, 25 Octobris 2011 (UTC)Reply

"But you should be aware that there are essentially no jobs available in classics." What about modern languages? I prefer the classics, but I also understand I need to go in a field where there's a certain demand ... I wouldn't mind teaching modern languages. Do you think the prospects would be less grim, then? Mattie 23:26, 29 Octobris 2011 (UTC)Reply
It depends. There are certainly more schools that teach modern languages, depending on the language (French, for example, is widely taught down here in the US, but not so widely as Spanish). No way you'd get a job teaching Welsh, though! But job prospects in the humanities as a whole are pretty grim -- languages, English, history, all around. The MLA should have stats, at least for the US. You don't have to settle this now, since you're just starting out: study as many languages as you can, to keep your options open (you were going to do this anyway, I suspect), and don't try to make too many large-scale decisions about your future all at once. A. Mahoney 20:09, 2 Novembris 2011 (UTC)Reply
PS: Should we implement something like the "Talkback" template they have in en:Template:Talkback? A. Mahoney 20:10, 2 Novembris 2011 (UTC)Reply
If you're willing to do so, I doubt anyone would complain! Mattie 01:50, 3 Novembris 2011 (UTC)Reply
I, for one, wouldn't complain  :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:27, 3 Novembris 2011 (UTC)Reply
Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks again for your input, I appreciate it. =] Mattie 01:50, 3 Novembris 2011 (UTC)Reply

De pagina Wikipedia


Respondi, tardissime, in pagina disputationis mea! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:58, 17 Ianuarii 2012 (UTC)Reply

Potius sero quam nunquam! =] Mattie 23:12, 17 Ianuarii 2012 (UTC)Reply

De Tolkien nostro


Xaverius Mattie suo s.p.d.! Me excusas, sed hanc amplissimam explicationem scribere Anglice necesse est mihi. Regarding the Tolkien/Lord of the Rings articles, aiming at a future pagina mensis, there are several issues I was wondering, and maybe if we put some thoughts together we could even create a Porta:Tolkien (cf Porta:Hispania et al).

Well, that wasn't that long after all. Anyway, I hope we can work together on this! --Xaverius 13:41, 29 Februarii 2012 (UTC)Reply

English is okay! On the first and third points, I think we should take the usual Vicipaedian position, that if it's not translated, we use the original language. In the case of Tolkien, none of his works were translated into Latin (except a very partial internet translation of Lord of the Rings, which I don't think counts), and given the importance Tolkien gave to his works' linguistics, I feel we should stick to English. This means renaming Dominus Anulorum to The Lord of the Rings, talking about Elves, not Alfi, the Shire, not Suzat, etc. Or does the Guide to Names... offer Latin translations? ¶ What I did when working on the Harry Potter stuff was that I mimicked what they had at en:. So whenever an English article I was translating from linked to en:Harry Potter universe, I'd link to Universum Harrii Potteri. This was a very easy way to stay organized. The "list-articles" and redirects we have at the moment are a mess, but I think that even just adding some consistency (and English) to the names should help a little bit, as should creating pages out of some redirects, etc. ¶ As I mentioned, I intend to translate from English rather than create original articles, which is what I nearly always do here since, to me, it's the most efficient way to work. Is that okay with you? What do you plan on doing? ¶ I actually finished reading the Silmarillion just a four days ago -- just in time to do some work on Tolkien! I'm glad we'll be working together :D Let me know if you disagree with any points I made. Mattie 01:09, 1 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
Regarding the points you've made, I'll go for a "Homeric inversion here" :-). Good to have a collaborator for such a project! I still have to read the Silmarillion, but I'm affraid I cannot devote to sihc reading during term time! ¶ As for the translation from English, that's fine with me, even if I try to avoid direct translations (especially because I cannot do direct translations, and I normally write shorter texts because of my limited Latin skills). I normally just take the data and information from there and create a new text in Latin - I've done some direct translations too, but I personally do not like them. ¶ The list-articles are very sueful, but they are right now a mess, and I think maybe we should start there, sorting them out, making proper articles out of them, because this will give us a sort of skeleton on which to work for further articles ¶ LAstly, on latinisation, I know Tolkien wrote the Guide... to allow and enease the translations of his book. It may well have some instructions on how to translate to Romance languages, I do not know, it's just a matter of checking. But following mores nostras, proper names should not be translated, but common names should (so alfi and nani but Shire and Mordor). The thing is that Tolkien made all these provisions to translate his writtingss so they would work in translation -- and although we are not here to do official translations, if there is a recommended and not outrageous way to latinise some names (for instance, Shire or Brandywine are more easily translatable than Rohan or Anduin). --Xaverius 10:45, 1 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
De commentationibus-indicibus omnino consentio. Expurgatio ante facienda est quam novorum additio! Adhuc autem de Latinizatione cunctor, quod de Comitatu Mordoreque, sed de Rohan, constantiae causa loqui nolim; praeterea omnia indeclinabilia verbo "regio" declinari possunt; et sunt nomina propria, nobis, ut dixisti, non fingenda. Illo tamen Guide abs te lecto, nobis duobus plura scientibus, profecto de hac re iterum colloqui possumus! Mattie (disputatio) 03:07, 3 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
Just adding food for thought here; I'm sure you two will make good decisions :)
Tolkien, as we know, was obsessively good at all this stuff. For us to translate Brandywine, we have to forget that Tolkien designed the name Brandywine as folk etymology; the river's Sindarin name being Baranduin, which has a different meaning.
For us to translate The Shire as "Comitatus", we have to forget that shires, when first invented, were not governed by counts: it was only with the Norman conquest that it became appropriate to call them counties or "comitatus", and I don't think the Shire ever suffered a Norman conquest! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:29, 3 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
On this note, and be it as it may a true name or a derivation from the Sindarin name, I think that the point is that because it is a common noun used in English, it may be translatable... I may be too influenced by the Spanish version, though...--Xaverius 23:01, 4 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
If I'm reading your comment properly, Andrew, you seem to be agreeing with me that the names should be left untouched. Mattie (disputatio) 00:44, 5 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
Yes, but very tentatively! I think my feeling is that the names in e.g. Sindarin and Elvish suit Latin better than the names in Hobbit-English; so I would be happy to see the river as Baranduin. But I can't really justify that, it's just a feeling. I don't remember offhand if we are given an alternative language name for "The Shire". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:50, 5 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
That could work. Sindarin would be the most obvious answer, and I assume we'd have much more luck finding Sindarin placenames than Quenyan ones, but Sindarin is mostly analytical so we won't have more syntactical luck than by using English. Nevertheless, I would be okay with using Sindarin, if only because it would give the articles a nice ring! ¶ The Shire does have other names, i.e. Sûza(t) in Westron (the t meaning "the") and i Drann in Sindarin, where i means "the" and would, I suppose, be dismissed when writing in Latin. Mattie (disputatio) 23:46, 5 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
Does Westron then work like Basque? blimey...--Xaverius 23:52, 5 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
I wouldn't put it past Tolkien! I read it as a simple enclitic, though, like in Scandinavian languages. Who knows ... Mattie (disputatio) 23:59, 5 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
For the record, if I remember correctly (I believe Christopher Tolkien talks about this in the preface for The Silmarillion), "Elvish" is used as a synonym for Sindarin, not Quenya. Mattie (disputatio) 23:50, 5 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
Then I guess I must have meant Sindarin and Quenya ... but I repeat, it's only a vague feeling and I suspect you two experts will be better able to decide. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:24, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
I'll check the Bod this afternoon or tomorrow and see what Tolkien has to say on this (if something at all), it may be the easiest way to solve this!--Xaverius 13:48, 5 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
IIRC, shire erat regio in dicione hominis shire-reeve appellati, qui in shiremoot praeerat. (Is Latine vicecomes appellabatur.) Are there sheriffs in Middle Earth? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:58, 5 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
Yeah, the Shire has sheriffs. See the last few chapters of Return of the King. Mattie (disputatio) 23:33, 5 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply

Nobis est disputandum: vidamus Hobbit (gens ficticia) et eligamus; hobbit (indecl), hobbit, -is, or hobbitus, -i? Nunc miki videtur formas tres in paginis esse--Xaverius 23:56, 5 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply

Well, we still haven't decided what we're doing in terms of borrowing! After all, there's also the Sindarin (i) Periannath to consider, heh. Mattie (disputatio) 00:08, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
Looking at el:Το Χόμπιτ, it seems the Greeks handled Hobbit as an indeclinable ... not much help from them, then ... Mattie (disputatio) 00:18, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
Liber conversus Hobbitus Ille nomen hobbitus attestabitur. When the book comes out (scheduled for September), many present questions will surely be answered. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 00:39, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
Goodness, brilliant! :D This will help us out immensely, and I can't wait to read the book! Here's to hoping the names will be better handled than in Harrius Potter ... Mattie (disputatio) 02:02, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
Now that will prove useful! --Xaverius 13:57, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply

Guide to the names...


I have been checking Tolkien's Guide... today, and I have found some useful information, but of course, this may not be useful after the Latin translation of The Hobbit is published.

  1. "All names not in the following list should be left entirely unchanged in any langauge used in translation, except that inflexional -s, -es should be rendered according to the grammar of the language" [I take this refers to plurals only]
  2. "The language of translation now replaces English as the equivalent of the Common Speech (...) The names in English form should be therefore translated into the other language according to their meaning" [after which a long list of names, do's and don'ts is given]
  3. Amongst the unstranslatable nouns are Ent, Hobbit [specificaly mentioning that it should not be translated or altered; cf. the Greek example], Isengard, Rivendel(l), Isengard, smial, Orthanc, Baranduin, etc etc, with the only exceptions in which small changes are done for the sake of euphonics (for instance, "dunlendings" into Spanish "dunledinos"). All of these names are referred to as "Common Speech versions of non-Common Speech names".
  4. Many other things are mentioned as not just as "translatable" but as "should be translated" (all in English, where English=Common Speech), including place names (Ashen mountains, Black country, Bywater, Hobbiton, Mount Doom, Helm's Deep, Brandywine), amongst other proper names (Brandybuck, Captains of the West, Corsairs, Dark Lord, The Dead, Easterlings, Elf-friend, the Enemy, the Fellowship of the Ring, Free Peoples, etc etc).

Now, in this I see a conflict between the facts that we are not authoritative translators and Tolkien's instructions. Most of the items mentioned in these lists I've outlined should not pose much problem and should be straight forward (until at least we get the references from the published version of The Hobbit), but there may be issues when dealing with personal names and (in particular) surnames.--Xaverius 18:59, 6 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply

Re #1: Since the plural morpheme is the only pertinent inflection available in English, that phrase could be taken to mean "except that [all inflectional forms] should be rendered according to the grammar of the language"—which, in turn, would mean that Tolkien was specifically allowing all the inflectional forms available in Latin. Surely he wasn't wanting to restrict Latin to the plural morpheme when genitive, dative, and other cases are implied (but not brought to the surface) in the grammar of the English text? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 00:58, 8 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
Yes, I think Tolkien would have wanted us to decline... the question (to me, at least) is whether we add a bunch of -us's or go Harrius Potter and use the 'original' as the singular nominative and treat every noun as if it was in the third declension. This works for Mordor and the like, no doubt, but for, say, Morgoth ... Mattie (disputatio) 01:06, 8 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
To the extent that Morgoth is meant for us to think of Goths, take whatever we call an individual Goth (Gothus, -i, no?) and add Mor in front of it? Ergo Morgothus, -i ? And then using that as the model, handle other words that end in -th (like Cirith) analogously? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:19, 8 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
Hm, do you think that "small changes done for the sake of euphonics" means that adding -us (etc.), as in Hobbitus, is basically acceptable, in this case for the sake of declension? I mean, we may as well go and call the Ents Ens, -tis which is a real Latin word (Tolkien's Ent comes from an Old English word meaning "giant", while the Latin ens comes from some present participle of esse, but nevertheless). Tolkien wrote the Guide with Germanic languages in mind, which of course don't absolutely need to decline nouns; it follows that had he been writing for Latin, he would have encouraged making them declinable. ¶ As for the Common Speech, I think I'll change my position, then, and say we should go ahead and translate what "should be translated." It'll make the whole thing a lot easier. We just need to make sure we're consistent, so creating individual pages right now, to settle on what exactly we're calling different things, should be a top priority. Mattie (disputatio) 00:16, 8 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
NB My point about "The Shire" was only a bit of pedantry. In reality I think a translation such as "Comitatus" would be good. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:14, 8 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply
So names in English/Common Speech we translate according to their meaning, and other we decline? I believe that those that could fit easily in a declension, like Mordor, should be declined, but Osgiliath or Cirith Ungol, maybe it is esier to leave them undeclinable, making our work easier, and probably Tolkien happy. And right as always, we should get the names sorted out first, before we continue further. I suggest to begin with place-names: I have been working on Arnor, and I'm happy to continue with Eriador east of the Misty Mountains and north of Rohan, and maybe you can do Gondor and the Anduin valley? --Xaverius 10:28, 8 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply

Creavi Opus:Tolkien, quod fortasse melior locus disputationibus quam haec pagina sit.--Xaverius 12:37, 8 Martii 2012 (UTC)Reply

Permultissimas gratias tibi ago



Ego sum creator paginae potato nominata, Rodericus. Iam vidi te menda corrixisse illa in pagina, et debeo tibi gratias dare permultissimas, nam illo modo pagina melius videtur, atque ego possum magis de latino sermone discere (nesciebam nonnullas expresiones, sicut "seu", ac nunc potero ea uti aliis in locis melius quam ante).

Multissimas gratias quidem tibi ago, amice. Te maxime admiror, ullo sine dubio :)

Nihil problematis! Felix sum auxilii conferendi. Sicumquam dubia habeas, de grammatica aliisve rebus, noli dubitare, quin me roges! Cura ut valeas, Mattie (disputatio) 19:12, 29 Aprilis 2012 (UTC)Reply



Je vois que c'est toi qui a mis en place la page du mois. Merci! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 07:11, 1 Maii 2012 (UTC)Reply

Mais oui, pas d'problème :-) Mattie (disputatio) 15:12, 1 Maii 2012 (UTC)Reply

Gratias ago


Salve! Gratias multas tibi ago, quod mihi suasores primos et auxilia praebuisti, quomodo paginas Vicipaediae melius et rectius componerem, id est paginas moribus vestris convenientes. Temptabo eis moribus quam diligentissime uti. Nobis omnibus contingat, Vicipaediam multis litteris ut augeamus et amplificemus.

(Corydon (disputatio) 21:46, 16 Iunii 2012 (UTC))Reply



I'm very sorry, Mattie. I had quite forgotten what you wrote in May. I saw you disagreed with the middle one of A.Mahoney's three proposed pages, but you didn't say which of the other two you were agreeing with and I assumed the first. Unfortunately, very few people express an opinion at all: seeing (as I thought) two voices for Iter transtemporale, I put it up. But anyone can put the page up (as you know because you've done it). I only do it because, nearly always, no one else has bothered to. If a wrong choice is made, anyone can change it. Another time, don't hesitate! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:12, 27 Iulii 2012 (UTC)Reply

I believe I'll survive this traumatic experience :-) I'm totally aware I could've changed it, or have asked you why you'd chosen Iter transtemporale, and I would have done so if it mattered to me. As I said in the disputatio paginarum mensis, I just thought it'd be a nice idea, but by no means a necessary one. Don't be sorry! And thank you for the kind message. If there was something to forgive you of, I would! Take care, Mattie (disputatio) 01:14, 28 Iulii 2012 (UTC)Reply
That's good! Incidentally, you wouldn't care to take the job on regularly, would you? "There must be someone with intelligence in the party," as Peregrine Took said once. (Which, as it turned out, was the cue for Gandalf to join.) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:38, 28 Iulii 2012 (UTC)Reply
J'peux bien! Gandalf (disputatio) 15:35, 28 Iulii 2012 (UTC)Reply
Magnifique! Super! Cool! Prends le bâton! Naturellement, comme tu l'as fait pour moi, je suis prêt à aider si, par exemple, tu n'es pas là à la fin du mois.
En principe on peut insérer le texte voulu dans "Formula:Pagina mensis" tout de suite quand la décision est faite. La seule raison pour laquelle on hésite est que souvent les éditeurs améliorent l'article, et surtout ses premières phrases, pendant les dernières jours avant sa promotion. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:10, 29 Iulii 2012 (UTC)Reply
Eh bien, je m'en vais au chalet ce soir, alors je vais le faire maintenant. C'est assez proche! Si les éditeurs l'améliorent, je pourrai le mettre à jour quand je reviens. :) Mattie (disputatio) 16:53, 29 Iulii 2012 (UTC)Reply



J'aime ton idée de mettre les textes originaux dans des notes de bas de page et de les séparer dans un groupe à eux. Je l'ai suivie dans Saladinus et Marcus Paulus Venetus. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:07, 16 Augusti 2012 (UTC)Reply

Merci! Ouais, ça ajoute de l'authenticité et ça rend nos articles plus utiles (moins inutiles). J'ai jeté un coup d'oeil à tes articles -- t'as vraiment suivi ce que je fais à la lettre, hahaha! (Peut-être serait-il mieux d'écrire "citationes Latine conversae"?) Quoi qu'il en soit, il faudra que mon ignorance et moi lisions ce que tu as écrit sur Saladin et Marco Polo :-) Mattie (disputatio) 21:34, 16 Augusti 2012 (UTC)Reply

Proposui ...

recensere quod meditavi. Si ad electionem consentis, O amice, s.t.p. "responsum" tuum adde hic :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:19, 17 Augusti 2012 (UTC)Reply

Factum est :) Mattie (disputatio) 20:01, 17 Augusti 2012 (UTC)Reply
Félicitations et bienvenu! Tu remarqueras tout de suite (je crois) deux petits changements: le triangle gris (au dessus) qui te donne les possibilités "Delere" et "Protegere": et dans les histoires l'option "Revertere". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:45, 25 Augusti 2012 (UTC)Reply
TOUT CE POUVOIR HOLY SHIT. J'ai comme envie de créer une page inutile, genre Usor:Mattie/jenesaisquoi, juste pour la supprimer par après ... >:] Mattie (disputatio) 21:08, 25 Augusti 2012 (UTC)Reply



Salve, Mattie! In case you were going for the points we get for exceeding 10K, the article isn't quite there yet. The history page shows it to have 11,052 octeti, but that figure includes interwiki links, which the tabulations at Meta-Wiki ignore. You've added 5288 octeti to what AMahoney's tabulations say was 3699, so (if none of the new text is commented out) the sum is now 8987 octeti. Most articles won't exceed 10K in the standings at Meta-Wiki until they exceed what their history page reckons to be about 12,250 octeti. Just so you know! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 17:38, 29 Augusti 2012 (UTC)Reply

OK, I've eked out 417 more octeti, but it's still not enough. More as time becomes available—or feel free to have a go! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 17:55, 29 Augusti 2012 (UTC)Reply
Oh, yeah, I figured I'd help you guys out a little bit and put it above 10K. I'll get back to it later today, so don't worry about it, and thanks for letting me know! Mattie (disputatio) 18:10, 29 Augusti 2012 (UTC)Reply

de formulis


Salvus sis! Vidi te strenue laborare ad formulas ex en: in nostram vicipaediam transferendas. Modo heri vidi formulam utilem hic en:Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia#World War II ad sinistram, qua plus quam una imago monstrari possit. Potesne etiam hanc formulam nostrae vicipaediae adaptare? Valeas quam optime! -- Ioscius 09:07, 1 Septembris 2012 (UTC)Reply

Once I get back from the cabin this Monday -- I gotta go! Nice to see you back on here, though! Mattie (disputatio) 16:29, 1 Septembris 2012 (UTC)Reply

Pulchre perrusticare, amice. -- Ioscius 22:13, 1 Septembris 2012 (UTC)Reply

Ecce, Iosci.
Formulam Latine renominare potes, si vis. An copy-pasting "strenue laborare" sit, nescio ... :-) Mattie (disputatio) 01:42, 3 Septembris 2012 (UTC)Reply

Dicendum est potius "Re vera strenue laboravi, nunc cerevisiam mereor!" =] Gratias! -- Ioscius 07:40, 3 Septembris 2012 (UTC)Reply

Interview for an article about latin wikipedia


Hi Mattie, I'm an italian journalist. I'm looking for someone to interview about latin version of wikipedia. I cheked on Usores list ( and I found you speak an advanced italian. The article is for the italian version of the magazine Plese if you are interested let me know. Otherwise, do you know an hard contributor who speaks italian? Thakn you for your time.

PS: I have seen two other people on the list that can peak italian but I think one does not collaborate anymore with wikipedia, the other one is finnish. So I guess you, as frenche native speaker, could know italian better.

Non farti ingannare dal finlandese di Neander: il suo talento linguistico è davvero impressionante e sono siccuro che parla italiano molto meglio di me. A dire il vero, non scrivo molto più su questo wiki -- la vita, ecc. ... Credo che sarebbe meglio se intervistassi qualcuno che lavora ancora qui. Ecco gli utenti che parlano con un italiano avanzato, con un livello quasi madrelingua, e infine gli utenti la cui madrelingua è l'italiano. Buona fortuna! E un altro consiglio: la maggior parte degli utenti su questo wiki parlano almeno un po' d'italiano. Mattie (disputatio) 14:59, 25 Ianuarii 2013 (UTC)Reply

Grazie per il tuo aiuto Mattie. Proverò a contattare Neander. So che ci sono molti utenti che parlano italiano ma vorrei intervistare qualcuno che sia molto coinvolto nel progetto, che sia almeno "magistratus".

Charles de Lignières


Bonjour Mattie,

Pourriez vous vérifier cette traduction automatique de la page du poëte Charles de Lignières [1].

Charles de Lignières, (vel interdum Caroli Carolus Lignieres) sit dominus Caudry in MDCLXXII, ipse successit Félix-Ignace-Guillaume Taffin antecedentibus Charles Viefville. Occupatisque munus Professor Collège du-Sorbonne. est auctor / poetae Latini aliquot libros modernis etiam Christianorum tragoediarum versibus exornavit. Comparative ad alios saeculo vicesimo primo studio ingenia analysi Martyr tragoediis Petri Corneille Polyeucte cumprimis hoc saeculo decimo septimo.

Merci.--DDupard (disputatio) 12:53, 11 Octobris 2015 (UTC)Reply

Ave Mattie, la page est là: Carolus de Lignieres, un petit coup d'oeil? Gratias maximas--DDupard (disputatio) 17:38, 14 Octobris 2015 (UTC)Reply

De iubilaeo Vicipaedianorum

Annum 2016 prosperum et felicem omnibus amicis Vicipaedianis opto! Apud Tabernam consentivimus annum 2016 (quem iubilaeum nostrum Helveticus nuncupavit) praecipue dedicare ad textum paginarum Vicipaedicarum augendum et meliorandum. Huic proposito consentiens (si tu consentis!) sic pro communi inceptu nostro agere potes:

  • Quando paginas novas legibiles, fontibus munitas, et non brevissimas creare vis, crea! Ne timeas!
  • Quandocumque paginam aut breviorem aut mendosam aut male confectam reperis, cura! corrige! auge!
  • Si paginam novam brevissimam creare in mentem habes, recogita ... An potius textum longiorem scribere oportet? An prius aliam paginam, iam exstantem, augere potes?

Quo dicto, Vicipaediani liberi sumus. Paginae etiam breves, quae inter veras "stipulas" admitti possunt (vide formulam "Non stipula"), accepturae sunt sicut iam antea accipi solent. Scribe igitur sine metu, sicut iam scripsisti! [en] Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:36, 1 Ianuarii 2016 (UTC)Reply

Le latin


Comment… Comment en arrive t-on à aimer autant le latin qu'on contribue à la version latine de wikipédia ?? Comment peut on en arriver à maîtriser autant le latin (même en la-3) ? L'enseignement du latin est-il si différent en France qu'à Boston ? BeKowz

J'ai répondu chez toi. Vale, Mattie (disputatio) 00:08, 7 Iulii 2016 (UTC)Reply

Inactivity and administrator rights


Dear Mattie, it has been a while since you last contributed actively to Vicipaedia. A number of years ago, it was discussed on Vicipaedia that, as a precautionary measure to reduce the risk of an admin account to be compromised (as has happened on en.wikipedia on at least one occasion), the administrator rights of inactive administrators could be temporarily suspended until the admin returns and wishes to resume activity.

So, I would like to invite you: Do come back and continue to contribute to Vicipaedia, a free encyclopedia in the Latin language! Even if you do not have much time to spare for Vicipaedia at the moment, please just log in to your account and reply "hello" to this message on your user talk page, and your admin rights will be secured for the next couple of months.

If we do not hear from you, your administrator rights will be temporarily revoked one month from now, but this should not hinder you to come back later, say "I'm here again" and get back your administrator rights instantaneously.

(If you do not intend to contribute to Vicipaedia any more, which we would regret very much, you can request removal of your admin status on the appropriate page on meta.)

Please do not hesitate to contact me or anyone in the Vicipaedia:Taberna with any question on Vicipaedia you might have. Thank you for all your past service, and hope to see you soon again! Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 17:11, 11 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)Reply

I have sent an e-mail to Mattie asking him to read the above message. --UV (disputatio) 17:17, 11 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)Reply

Salve mi UV! Unfortunately while I have nothing but good things to say about the community here, I am not currently planning on getting active again. If I do, I'll be sure to remember that I can request having administrator rights reinstated. Gratias tibi ago. Mattie (disputatio) 03:42, 12 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)Reply

Your feedback is needed - Improving the Content Translation tool


Hello Friend,

Apologies as this message is not in your native language.

The WMF language team is reaching out to you based on your position as an admin in the Latin Wikipedia. In particular, we want to learn about your experience, the issues you encounter with articles created with Content translation.

We appreciate the great work you are doing in Latin Wikipedia to ensure standard and quality articles are not compromised. However, it is a big task to encounter content that is not standard daily, and a difficult decision to delete them because they fall below standard.

Our observations

We noticed that articles created with the Content Translation tool in your wiki are deleted more frequently than in other Wikipedias. We say this because, from our statistics, 5360 articles were added to Latin Wikipedia in 2020. Out of the above figure, only 68 of them were translated using the Content Translation tool. 17 of the articles added with Content translation were deleted. Therefore, the tool's low usage and the deletion rate signals a problem or deficiencies peculiar to your Wikipedia. The Content Translation tool can increase content creation in your Wikipedia and is an excellent way to efficiently introduce newcomers to adding content and expand on existing ones.

Our request

So, we want you to participate in a survey. The survey will give us insight into how we can improve the tool to get quality articles and reduce the number of deletion, hence making your work easier.

Please follow this link to the Survey:

Take the Survey
To know how the information collected from the survey will be used, please read the Privacy Statement.

If you are not comfortable with taking the survey, that is fine. You can still provide us with feedback in this thread or via email on the following questions:

  • What makes the articles created with content translation fall below standard in your Wikipedia?
  • What are the common mistakes that editors that use content translation make?
  • How do you think we can improve the  Content Translation tool that will help you with your work or make your task easier and reduce deletion of articles in Latin Wikipedia?

So please, feel free to give us feedback in any way that is most convenient for you.

Thank you so much, as we look forward to your response

UOzurumba (WMF) (talk) 11:38, 21 Iunii 2021 (UTC) On behalf of the WMF language team.Reply

Reminder: Your feedback is needed - Improving the Content Translation tool


Hello Friend!

The WMF Language team earlier reached out to you to participate in a survey to give us insight into improving the Content Translation tool to make your work as an admin easier. Towards improving the quality of content in your Wikipedia and avoiding the case of content deletion.

Again, we are reaching out to you as a reminder to Take the Survey as the survey will close on 9th July 2021 (23:59 UTC). The survey will only take you between 10 to 15 minutes. Please read the Privacy Statement to know how the information collected from the survey will be used.

If you already took the survey- thank you! You don't need to retake it.

Thank you, as we look forward to your response.

UOzurumba (WMF) 19:17, 6 Iulii 2021 (UTC) On behalf of the WMF Language team.Reply

How we will see unregistered users



You get this message because you are an admin on a Wikimedia wiki.

When someone edits a Wikimedia wiki without being logged in today, we show their IP address. As you may already know, we will not be able to do this in the future. This is a decision by the Wikimedia Foundation Legal department, because norms and regulations for privacy online have changed.

Instead of the IP we will show a masked identity. You as an admin will still be able to access the IP. There will also be a new user right for those who need to see the full IPs of unregistered users to fight vandalism, harassment and spam without being admins. Patrollers will also see part of the IP even without this user right. We are also working on better tools to help.

If you have not seen it before, you can read more on Meta. If you want to make sure you don’t miss technical changes on the Wikimedia wikis, you can subscribe to the weekly technical newsletter.

We have two suggested ways this identity could work. We would appreciate your feedback on which way you think would work best for you and your wiki, now and in the future. You can let us know on the talk page. You can write in your language. The suggestions were posted in October and we will decide after 17 January.

Thank you. /Johan (WMF)

18:17, 4 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

Inactivity policy


Hi, Mattie. I hope you're OK.

In accord with general Wikimedia security, we have to suspend admin rights for magistratus who have been inactive for a certain period: we have defined this period as 12 months. If you want to retain your admin rights without interruption, the simplest thing to do is to make an edit on Vicipaedia within one month from now (before 20 January 2023). If you don't do this, your admin tools will be suspended on that date.

You are always welcome to Vicipaedia, now and later. Your account remains active, and if after 20 January you want to take up your magistracy again, there's no formality: just ask (on my talk page for example) and your tools will be restored.

Have a happy holiday period and a good New Year! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:31, 20 Decembris 2022 (UTC)Reply