Vicipaedia:Taberna/Tabularium 29

De pagina primaRecensere

Bonum annum 2019 amicis Vicipaedianis voveo. Si paginam primam inspicis mutationes videbis quas hodie temptavi. An "paginam cottidianam" (inter recentissimas selectam) videre placet? An rubricas emendare oportet?

Alia quaestio: paginam primam faciei mobilis inspiciens, eas res tantum videbis quas in sinistra columna faciei plenae habemus. Si faciem mobilem mutare possumus (id quod nescio!) quas res ibi addere suadebis?

Happy New Year to Vicipaedian friends. If you look at the Pagina prima today you will see the changes that I have just tested. What do you think? Is it OK to have a daily page, chosen from among our most recent new pages? Do we need to change the headings?

Another question is about the mobile view Pagina prima. If you look at it on mobile view you will see only those items that we have in the left column of the full Pagina prima. If we can change this (currently, I don't know if we can) what other items would you add to the mobile view Pagina prima? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:20, 2 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)


Salvete, vidi paginam nomine "Michael hirschler". Ibi vidi quoddam mendum. Nomen enim "hirschler" scribitur littera magna / maiuscula neque littera parva. Quomodo hoc mendum mutare possum?

Paginam correxi, sed necesse erit fontem addere textumque augere. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:43, 3 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

De pagina prima, pars IIRecensere

Quando potes, s.t.p. paginam primam tam plenam quam mobilem, omnibus browsers omnibusque devices tibi accessibilibus, inspice!

  • An paginae primae, plenae et mobiles (sicut hodie stant), utiles et pulchrae tibi videtur? Quomodo melius ordinare possumus?
  • An malis aliquas res (e pagina plena aut mobili aut ambobus) omittere, aliquas res novas inserere?

De his quaestionibus, o amici, placita vestra date! paginamque primam, quotidie renovatam, quotidie visitate ...! Gratias ago ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:23, 4 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

The "pagina cottidiana" that Andrew introduced and maintains is, in my view, a great idea to feature a new page every day, which invites readers to check back to our pagina prima often, and which shows the activity in the creation of articles on diverse subjects here on Vicipaedia. I therefore suggest that we swap the positions of "Pagina cottidiana" and "Pagina mensualis" on our main page. That way, the "Pagina cottidiana" will become more prominent and our main page will invite readers to check back more often. What do you think? Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 14:10, 10 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Nemine contradicente, I have made the change. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 21:50, 18 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Starting today, our pagina prima in mobile view contains the same content as in desktop view (but for the gray content menu bar that would take up quite much screen space on mobile view). Feel free to comment here on the content and appearance of our pagina prima (in mobile view and/or in desktop view)! --UV (disputatio) 22:03, 11 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with the main page, but I miss a link to Specialis:nuper mutata in the mobile version. Is there a way to include it in the side bar? --Aylin (disputatio) 05:42, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
I never noticed. That's an important link for small-to-medium wikis such as ours. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:06, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
As far as I see, Specialis:Nuper mutata does not yet work in the mobile version, see mw:Reading/Web/Advanced mobile contributions#Special Pages. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 22:04, 20 Februarii 2019 (UTC)


For the past few weeks, the box for inserting these items hasn't worked; clicking on them no longer has an effect:

    – — … * † ‡ ← → ↔ ↑ ↓ • § ¶ • [[]] | {{}} ~~~~ [[Categoria:]] {{DEFAULTSORT:}} #REDIRECT [[]] • <ref></ref> <ref name=""></ref> <ref name="" /> <references /> • <nowiki> </nowiki>

(They can still be copied & pasted into texts.) Can their original functionality be restored? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 22:01, 6 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

I'm very glad you raised this. I thought it was just me, because it had happened to me once before. If it's you as well, that's practically a quorum :) Perhaps someone who understands will respond ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:53, 7 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
For reference: I've checked the options listed among the preferences and haven't found anything that looks pertinent. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:47, 7 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
The problem is that our MediaWiki:Onlyifediting.js uses "mw.toolbar.insertTags" in two places but "mw.toolbar.insertTags" was disabled around Oct/Nov 2018. I am not totally sure about this, but possibly it would be sufficient to replace in our MediaWiki:Onlyifediting.js
mw.toolbar.insertTags(elem, "", "");
$('#wpTextbox1').textSelection('encapsulateSelection', {pre: elem});
mw.toolbar.insertTags(elem[0], elem[1] || "", elem[2] || "");
$('#wpTextbox1').textSelection('encapsulateSelection', {pre: elem[0], post: elem[1] || "", peri: elem[2] || ""});
but I cannot try this out because editing our MediaWiki:Onlyifediting.js is not open to editing by all our magistratus any more, but editing this page has meanwhile been limited to meta:Interface administrators. We could either ask one of the meta:Stewards at meta:Steward requests/Miscellaneous to perform this change, or, if there is community consensus, I could serve as interface administrator and then try the change myself. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 00:47, 8 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
I propose that we name UV our interface administrator. Does anyone disagree?
Sit usor:UV "magistratus a faciebus". Addite, s.v.p., placita vestra. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:39, 8 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Summo studio consentio! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:35, 8 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
I thought it was my computer when I last tried them. But yes, I think UV should try that!--Xaverius 13:39, 8 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Consentio ego quoque. A. Mahoney (disputatio) 15:18, 8 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Certe consentio. Lesgles (disputatio) 03:11, 10 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Creetur --Iustinus (disputatio) 08:55, 10 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Sic scribatur, sic fiat! (Etc, etc etc) UV is interface adminitrator now. Adam Episcopus (disputatio) 12:13, 10 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

The fix to MediaWiki:Onlyifediting.js seems to have worked! You may need to clear your browser's cache for the change to take effect. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 21:17, 10 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! It's working again for texts being edited; however, it hasn't regained the ability to insert symbols into the Summarium (summary box). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 00:51, 11 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
It works for me too. Thanks, UV, that's a great relief!
As for the summarium (mentioned by Iacobus), I don't think I ever did that or saw a reason to do it. I get a drop-down box, so, if I wanted one of these groups of characters in the summarium, I guess I'd paste it in once, and then I'd be able to choose it next time. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:40, 11 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
I often use an arrow to show corrections of small errors; e.g., yesterday: "annic→annis". IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:03, 11 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
I made another change to MediaWiki:Onlyifediting.js, and inserting text or characters should now work for the summary box as well! You may need to clear your browser's cache for the change to take effect. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 20:47, 11 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
It works! Thanks, UV! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:30, 12 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Urbs Lacus SalsiRecensere

Estne nobis mos certus, quo lege nomen loci declinandum sit, cum prima eius vox terminus geographicus est, e. g. Urbs Lacus Salsi: cum rogamus ubi?, respondemus modo locativo (Urbe Lacus Salsi) aut praepositione (in Urbe Lacu Salsi) utendum est? (Nugae sunt ista, certo scio,; sed fortasse recte aut falso fieri possunt.) --Bavarese (disputatio) 11:46, 14 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Ipse scriberem Urbe Lacu Salsi, cum in vel sine in, sed non Urbe Lacus Salsi. De more certo nescio, — tota Vicipaedia ad respondendum perscrutanda est. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 20:54, 18 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
In Gildersleeve's Latin Grammar (#386) legimus: "Appositions are put in the Abl. commonly with in; when the appositive has an attribute, the proper name regularly precedes: Neapoli, in celeberrimo oppido." Ergo, ut videtur: Lacu Salso, in urbe Utensi. ¶ Nomen autem Urbs Lacús Salsí casum genetivum adhibere videtur, de quo Gildersleeve iterum (#361): "A special variety is the use of the Gen. after such words as urbs, oppidum, flumen, etc. This is not found in Plautus and Terence, occurs perhaps but once in Cicero, and seems to be confined to a few cases in poetry and later prose." Ergo: (in) urbe Lacús Salsí. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 21:30, 18 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Lacus Salsus est ... lacus salsus; adiectivum "salsus" cum nomine 4. decl. "lacus" congruit. Urbs non est lacus, sed iuxta lacum sita: ergo appositionem nullam hic habemus. Est "urbs" (nom.) "Lacús Salsi" (gen.). Si ibi sumus, aut locativo nudo ("urbe") aut cum praepositione ("in urbe") locum nostrum exprimimus, sed non est cur casum genitivum mutemus, qui relationem inter urbem et lacum semper denotare debet. Ego igitur aut "urbe Lacus Salsi" aut "in urbe Lacus Salsi" scribo.
Eodem tempore scribens, aliunde incipiens, ad eandem finem quam Iacobus perveni! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:37, 18 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Recte, ibi Lacus genetivus est, in Urbe Lacus Salsi, sed non in urbe Neapolis. Gratias. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 21:50, 18 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Dixerim "in urbe Neapoli" (casu ablativo = locativo). Ibi re vera appositionem habemus. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 22:54, 18 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)


Nonnumquam praenomen theodiscum Horst video latine versum Horatius. Id mihi videtur res dubia esse. Nam illud linguae veteris theodiscae, vel veteris anglicae aut germanicae, est, hoc autem veteris linguae latinae. Suntne testimonia istius aequationis? --Bavarese (disputatio) 19:42, 23 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)


In Vicipaedia "homophylophilia" sed non "homosexualitas" scribimus. Ego unum alii non praepono. Sed video nos "bisexualitas" scribere. Et dubio si verba inter se congruunt. Nonne "amphiphylophilia" (αμφιφυλοφιλία) scribere debemus? Sigur (disputatio) 11:57, 24 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Minime ita. Graeca enim vox ἀμφί non significat ambo, sed circum. Fortasse ἀμφί commutasti cum ἂμφω? --Bavarese (disputatio) 13:55, 24 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Scientia carente Neograece scripsi. "Amphophylophilia" igitur? Sigur (disputatio) 15:18, 24 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Ita, Neograece el:αμφιφυλοφιλία scribitur. O tempora! O mores!
Cavete autem: si verbum Latinum fontibus fidelibus confirmatum iam habemus, fere nunquam verbum sine fonte a nobis confectum substituimus. Oportet fontes quaerere ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:41, 25 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Fons vocabuli bisexualitatis hic invenitur. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:33, 25 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Sed hic "bisexualitas" est qualitas entis binorum sexuum (hermaphroditi), non propensio sexualis! Sigur (disputatio) 13:08, 25 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
An (hic p. 147 apud Google Books) etiam? An (hic p. 249 apud Google Books), ubi (mihi videtur) bisexualitas ab hermaphroditismo quaqua ratione distinguitur? Incertus sum. Theodisce difficiliter lego. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:18, 25 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Theodisce bene lego :). In Primo fonte bisexualitas clarissime ordo binorum sexuum est; in altero verisimiliter etiam ita est (bisexualitas=species binorum sexuum; hermaphroditismus=species cum individuis bina genitalia habentibus; unisexualitas=species sine variis genitaliis). Sigur (disputatio) 13:48, 25 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Hmm. Si "bisexualitas" alium sensum habet, si "αμφιφυλοφιλία" lectori classico sensum dubium dat, si "amphophylophilia" (*"ambisexualitas") nullibi usque adhuc exstat, quid? Verbum "διφυλοφιλία" (> diphylophilia, sensu "amor duorum sexuum", cf. bisexualitas) bis Neograece reperio hic et hic (fide Google). Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:20, 25 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Diphylophilia optio mala non est. Lemma Anglicum Pansexuality etiam initio in Vicipaedia Neograeca verbo πανφυλοφιλία convertum est. Ita verba homophylophilia, diphylophilia et panphylophilia congruere potuerunt. Sigur (disputatio) 19:59, 25 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Bene! Regulis phonologicis Graecis obtemperans, παμφυλοφιλία "pamphylophilia" praefero. Neograeci aliqui eadem orthographia utuntur, e.g. quater in hoc foro. Sed rem minimam esse censeo! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:52, 26 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
De pamphylophilia nondum in Vicipaedia Latina scribimus, sed mihi gratum est. Quod attinet ad diphylophiliam, opinionemne de eo alii Vicipaediani habent? Sigur (disputatio) 11:10, 26 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Quia Andrew et ego assentimur verbo "diphylophilia" cum alii nullam opinionem habeant, nunc eas res mutabo. Sigur (disputatio) 18:33, 27 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)


IacobusAmor and I had a little discussion about subdivisions of legal texts, and it was not evident for either of us which way to go. If you take as an example the EU Treaty, it is divided into titles which have chapters which have sections which have articles which have paragraphs. In order to have something immediately understandable, I'm tempted by titulus-caput-sectio-articulus-paragraphus to translate this (some laws also have "parts", for which "pars" would be an obvious option). On the other hand, I know that it will never be perfect, as e.g. a "section" in a British statute is something equivalent to an "article" in a French law, which in turn is equivalent to the "Paragraf" of a German law (to make the confusion complete, Bavarian laws have "Artikel" as have some federal German ones as well). So, it's all pretty complicated, but that is why my first idea was to stay close to the "indigenous" words. Disputatio incipiat! Sigur (disputatio) 21:39, 24 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Latinizing Greek feet &c.Recensere

We seem to be having some confusion here about how to Latinize Greek feet. Stearn (Botanical Latin, ed. 3a, p.99) tells us: "Compounds of -pus (-footed, -based), acc. sing. -podem, gen. sing. -podis . . . are similarly declined [as -botrys, -glochin, and -odon]." In the case of chilopus (thousand-footed), for example, that would give us the plurals chilopodes, gen. pl. chilopodum, and so we might well go on a drug-induced trip, venture into the third declension, and see aves chilopodes (thousand-footed birds), gen. pl. avium chilopodum. Taxonomical names, however, ending in nom. pl. -poda, appear to be plurals of an assumed -podum, in the second declension. That seems to be modern usage, as in: Nomenclator generum et familiarum Chilopodorum, including data from 1958 to 2005. Also hic, usque ad 1957. The same usage appeared thus in 2017: "Species novae Chilopodorum cavernicolorum Balcanicorum." Examples of contrary usage may be found, but we may have two things here: an adjectival plural, as in chilopodes, -um (third declension), suitable for describing anything at all, and a taxonomically restricted noun-adjective, as in chilopoda, -odorum (second declension), applicable only to a particular classificatory grouping. Can more evidence be found? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:07, 8 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Not easy, is it? Oddly enough, I looked for Google evidence on "Myriapoda" (which occurs in the same article Scolopendromorpha that I think we're talking about and that I edited today) and found a good 19th century source for the genitive plural -um, see Nomina systematica generum Myriapodum, tam viventium quam fossilium. The only Google sources for "Myriapodorum" were ... Vicipaedia.
Now that you impel me to look for the genitive plural of "Chilopoda", which I didn't till now, I find a comparable 19th century source confirming "Myriapodum" and adding "Chilopodum" (title page and middle of page 25 apud Google Books), and I also find that on Vicipaedia the well-known myriapodist IacobusAmor chose "chilopodum" as gen. pl. twice in the text of Cormocephalus rubriceps and of Chilopodum domesticum. How often he has chosen "chilopodorum" I haven't checked ...
But forgive me, this is just a cheap dig. The fact is, as I see it, there isn't full consistency on this in the literature. Afterthought: it's possible that 19th century zoologists were better at handling Greek-type declensions in Latin than their late 20th century colleagues. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:33, 8 Februarii 2019 (UTC)


I'm preparing a little stub for the town of Mönchengladbach. The problem I have with it, is that the town is in short known as "Gladbach", which is duly attested in Latin as "Gladbacum" (with variants like "Gladebacum" or "Gladebachum", also the adjective "Gladbacensis"). The official name has been lengthend in the 19th century to better distinguish it from the town of "Bergisch-Gladbach", but even today, locals simply say "Gladbach", as long as there is no ambiguity.

To start the article, I was thinking of something like this:

Gladbacum[footnote with source] (Theodisce "Gladbach") vel Theodisce hodie plene "Mönchengladbach", id est Gladbacum Monachorum, est urbs in Germania et Rhenania Septentrionalis-Vestfalia, circiter 262 200 incolarum.

I could explain the official name change later on.

But then what should the page title be? I haven't found a source saying that Bergisch-Gladbach was also translated as Gladbacum, but that's rather probable. Therefore, "Gladbacum" alone would seem problematic. Both towns are in the Rhineland, so it's difficult to add a clear geographic qualifier. I think that as "Gladbacum" is attested, it should be there, but can we dare "Gladbacum Monachorum" although only half of it is attested? Or something like "Gladbacum (Mönchengladbach)"? Any other ideas?

And by the way, does anyone know how to get this into Wikimedia Commons? It's old enough so that there couldn't be any copyright issues, but it's stuck in the German Wiki for now. Sigur (disputatio) 08:11, 15 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

I'd keep it just as you present it, adding perhaps a {{convertimus}} after Gladbacum Monachorum. Or even maybe something on the lines of "Gladbacum est nomen olim datum urbi hodiernae Mönchengladbach, quae Latine est Gladbacum Monachorum, blabla"--Xaverius 08:33, 15 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
I agree. In some cases longer modern names don't need to be literally converted to Latin -- the short name remains valid and the lengthening achieves nothing -- but in this case, since the lengthening makes a useful distinction, and I think non-locals nearly always call the place by its longer name, we should go with it. "Monachorum" is a perfectly good translation and it is used in other similar names.
In the text, we just have to tell the truth. We don't pretend that the Latin name "Gladbacum Monachorum" is already used if it isn't. We admit that it's our translation and we say why. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:44, 15 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
This kind of naming occurs elsewhere too. France, for example, has Colombey-les-Belles and Colombey-les-Deux-Églises. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:29, 15 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Use of italicsRecensere

A side issue: in standard typography (at least over here), words cited as words, rather than the things they represent, are italicized (less often, put between double quotes). So definitions of the form "X is the name of a thing" require X to be italicized—and for a lemma, that would be a silly thing to do when, as here, the definition can be made to read "X is a thing." Quotation marks might even be sillier. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:22, 15 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

On Vicipaedia we most often use italics for words that are not Latin, especially in contexts where it's helpful to distinguish them from words that are Latin. Hence, in the first paragraph of Gladbacum Monachorum, the German name goes into italics (I've just fixed that: OK I hope?) to distinguish it from the two Latin names. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:52, 15 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Yes, that's another function of italics. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:41, 15 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Interface with CommonsRecensere

Currently, if you click on an image to see more details, you see -- on the Commons site, just below the image title -- the words "E Wikimedia Commonte". This looks like a joke, though someone may have intended it seriously. I'd love to convert it into real Latin, but although I have an account at Translatewiki I have no idea how to find this message. Can anyone help?

A direct translation of the English could be "E Communibus Vicimediorum", but the accurate statement (since the page is "at Commons", not "from Commons") would be "apud Communia" or "Fasciculus apud Communia Vicimediorum". That's what I would say. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:10, 18 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Well, this is a quite intricate thing. The MediaWiki software does not handle Latin declensions properly. Still, some time ago, I managed to teach a subset of Latin declensions to the MediaWiki software so that the MediaWiki software at least handles the Latin site names listed ad Usor:UV/MediaWiki l10n/grammar decently. "Wikimedia Commons", however, is not a Latin site name and in particular declensions of non-Latin names will most probably fail with sometimes funny results.
I fear that there are not too many people who, like you, have edited their commons preferences to display commons with the Latin user interface. Still, you could try to persuade an admin on commons to change commons:MediaWiki:Tagline/la to an at least grammatically correct wording. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 22:06, 18 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Thank you, yes, I see how it works now. Indeed, if "Wikimedia Commons" were a compound of "mons", the result would be perfect. You're right, I only see this message because Latin is my chosen language at Commons, and, understanding so much, I can face the consequences bravely. But maybe I will try to persuade someone to correct the tagline ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:17, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)


We have a lemma "Lingua Africana" which is supposed to mean "Afrikaans". There is a footnote, but it doesn't give a source for this usage. The only other place where I've found this translation is, and that is probably based on Vicipaedia in the first place. In any language I know except Afrikaans itself, adding the adjective for "African" to "language" just means what it means in English: an African language (In Afrikaans, the convention is to use a compound noun if you want to say "African language: "'Afrikataal" instead of "Afrikaanse taal", see here). So, I think this is confusing and the lemma should be "Afrikaans", unless someone finds another Latin word somewhere (but I've searched a lot and in vain).

Now, it does bug me to have a word you can't decline and I'm wondering whether we couldn't say "Afrikaans sive Afrikaner" (the latter adjective is rather ethnic than linguistic but can be used for the language as well) and add a footnote saying that we inflect it like "liber" but that we have invented that: "Constat linguam Afrikaneram*, quae..." with the footnote "* De forma vide liber, -a, -um, sed extra Vicipaediam huius usus testificatio vix inveniri potest." Sigur (disputatio) 17:23, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

I would be against "Afrikaner -a -um" without a source -- and I suspect there won't be a good source. By all means prove me wrong!
You are right that "Lingua Africana" is a bad name. If we drop it, we still have the option of "lingua Afrikaans", declining the word "lingua" so that we always know the intended case. We often have to use that solution, it's a natural thing to do with indeclinable names. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:38, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
We could add meridionalis to Lingua Africana. --Maria.martelli (disputatio) 18:56, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

If I had a source (even a bad one), I wouldn't be suggesting the footnote I'm suggesting :). As to Lingua Africana meridionalis, in Dutch they sometimes do that ("Zuidafrikaans"), but it would still be ambiguous (there are quite a number of South African languages). Sigur (disputatio) 19:21, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

I think Maria's suggestion is worth considering. It suggests to me a second possibility, "lingua Africana (Batava)". This is how we distinguished the two languages that are called "Scotica": we call one lingua Scotica (Gadelica) and the other lingua Scotica (Teutonica) (these correspond to terms that are sometimes used in English). Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:33, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Hard to be enthusiastic about that, but it would take away the ambiguity, at least. Sigur (disputatio) 20:45, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
BTW, I found this as well: Disputatio:Kimberley (Africa Australis) (and I just can't decide whether "australafricanus, -a, -um" would be less ambiguous or not...) Sigur (disputatio) 21:09, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Meridionalis is postclassical. Australis is classical, and Ovid has polus australis for 'south pole'. Austrinus, too, is classical, as Piny has vertex austrinus for 'south pole'. And so australis and austrinus seem good for everywhere in Africa (not to mention most of South America). Meridianus seems classically more restricted to the equator and latitudes north of it (though of course that distribution could be a feature of imperfect sampling). Note also that we have the continent & country of Australia, not Meridiana. ¶ So Lingua Africana (Australis) might be best. Doesn't afrikaans in its own language mean simply 'African' or 'African-ish'—h.e. '(lingua) Africana'? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 21:32, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
It does indeed, and that's why our current "Lingua Africana" agrees with our general rule (if there's no Latin source, and if the name is translatable in common words, we do so) but I think one must agree that it is annoyingly ambiguous or misleading or both.
Yes, "Australafricana" exists in biological Latin, and it would correspond to the Dutch term "Zuidafrikaans" mentioned by Sigur above [and the language we're discussing originated at the very southernmost point of Africa]. Not to be dismissed, I think ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:43, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
I'm just wondering what adjective we would use for anything South African. If that is going to be anything else than "australafricanus", then I vote for that term for the language!
On a side note (concerning IacobusAmor's comment): My understanding is that "meridies" means "noon" and by extension the direction where you find the sun at noon: south. If that is so, you definitely don't want to use the word for anything in the southern hemisphere, because that's were the sun at noon is in the north! Sigur (disputatio) 21:54, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Africaans vel Africana (Batava), Africana Batava, Batava Africana mihi meliores videntur; nam meridionali/australi addito ambiguitas manet: multae linguae in Africa Meridionali/Australi in usu sunt. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 22:11, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Or we go back to Cape Dutch and say "Batava Capitensis"... More seriously, I'm thinking more and more that one way or the other only some combination with "Batava" can take away the ambiguity. Sigur (disputatio) 22:25, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
"Batava Capitensis" is nice and historic. As a straight translation of what was once a standard term, yes, I guess it would be OK.
In general, I agree, it's desirable to have a different adjective for languages and for nation-states. I'm sure we can achieve that in this case. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:42, 20 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Should I conclude from the silence that everyone can live with Lingua Batava Capitensis'? Fine with me! This would then be the page name (which, as I've been rightly reminded of recently, would percolate through into Wikidata), but in the introductory sentence, I would suggest to give alternatives in bold, something like this:
"Lingua Batava Capitensis, vulgo Afrikaans (quod adiectivo Africana convertitur, sed hoc adiectivo ambiguitas manet), est lingua Germanica in Africa Australi atque..."
Looking at the article further down, I'm wondering what the adverb is supposed to be. "Batave Capitenter"? Not that I would ever count on it in Latin, but my intuition has doubts... A compound (Capiti-Batave...)? Any other ideas from real Latinists? Sigur (disputatio) 19:32, 21 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Exempli gratia:
"Lingua Batava Capitensis<ref>fons</ref>, vulgo Afrikaans<ref>I.e. simpliciter Africana.</ref> etc.
"Lingua Africana (Batava){{Convertimus}}, vulgo Afrikaans etc.
aut aliter. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 20:00, 21 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
[Edit conflict:] Nonne tu Latinista verus es? Mea mente paginam movere potes ad Lingua Batava Capitensis cum sententia prima sicut proponis.
"Batave Capitenter" non amo! Adiectivum duplex in adverbium duplex aegre convertitur, sed, loco adverbii, ablativo uti potes ("lingua Batava Capitensi"; "hac lingua"). Argumento commentationis semel definito, Latinistae rarius, quam scriptores linguarum vulgarium, repetere solent. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:23, 21 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Latinistae veri unum verbum inter duo in Victionario requirere non solent... Sed bene, movebo. Sigur (disputatio) 21:04, 21 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

De translationibus nominum "Seaplane" et " Seaplane Base"Recensere

Quaestionem a disputatione mea movi:

Renovatiovicipaediae Andreae salutem dicit. I found myself lost today; as already shown in the title, I was wondering how to translate those 2 terms I need for a page here on wiki. It has been not a long time since I've been into Vicipaedia, so I'm not sure how to create a proper discussion about the topic, but definetely I did notice you as one of the most active user around the site and I thought you could help me. Thank you. RenovatioVicipaediae (disputatio) 23:40, 22 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

It's often best to ask on the Taberna, so I'll move your question there and we'll see what other editors suggest. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:58, 23 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Hydroplanum, ut Leo Latinus affirmat, basestatio? Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 17:31, 23 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Western etc.Recensere

Et mea vice rogo: quomodo western Latine sit? Leo ibidem hippodrama, hippocinema dat. Possibile est, sed haud semper de equis et equitatu in western agitur. Revolucrale nequaquam intelligo (qui revolucrat?). An alia verba iam proposita sunt? Quomodo cowboy? Num bubulcus? Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 12:28, 24 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Cum locutores multarum aliarum linguarum cowboy et western ab Anglico sermone mutuati sint, quin etiam nos ad hanc mutuationem decurramus? Etiam Leo Latinus, cum hippodrama suadet, vocabulum mutuaticium commendat, quamquam Graeci hodierni γουέστερν dicunt. Itaque cowboy et western, cum ad certum genus artis referuntur, termini technici esse videntur, qui insigniter difficiles translatu esse solent. Nec vaccis neque aliis rebus bubulis cowboys illi in pelliculis westernis prodeuntes multum detineri videntur, nam suum mundum fabulosum incolunt. Tamen facile concedo vocabula ab Anglico mutuata vix et aegre declinabilia esse. ¶ Sin autem more anthropologorum de vita et operibus cotidianis variorum bubulcorum (cowboy, gaucho, vaquero, &c) narrandum sit, consentaneum videtur bubulco uti appellatione generali, cui indicium quoddan geographicum appendi possit. Neander (disputatio) 18:25, 24 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Nomina generum artis re vera paene nomina propria sunt, et western non solum genus cinematographiae, sed et musicae, quod nec -drama nec -cinema nominari potest. Et "cowboy" non est "gaucho", quamquam ambo bubulci sunt. Sed cum scribo western, mox corrigo vestern, vesternicus, hmmm..., occidentalis? Country and western - musica Americana rustica et occidentalis? Sed haec explicatio est, non nomen paginae. Nescio, fortasse aliquando western scribam. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 21:45, 24 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Fortasse tantum occidentalis, -is, scil. pellicula (adiectivum = substantivum). Confer continens, -entis, scil. terra. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:16, 11 Martii 2019 (UTC)
Pellicula occidentalis ut lingua Africana est, eandem dignitatem et eadem damna habet. Purum est, sed incertum, et, ut lectores intelligant, explicatio quaedam addenda erit (pellicula occidentalis<ref>I.e. western.</ref> etc.) Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 14:59, 11 Martii 2019 (UTC)
Ita: locutio "pelliculae occidentales" mihi dicit "pelliculae in cultura occidentali creatae" (si haec cultura una et definibilis sit). Responsum utilem non habeo :( Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:21, 11 Martii 2019 (UTC)


I'm thinking of starting an article on "Citizenship" (listed here), but I'm wondering what it should be. "Civitas" is the first thing to come to mind, but we already use that for "state", and sometimes for "city". Ambiguous enough, as it is. My next idea was "Status civitatis" but that reminds me of "Status Civitatis Vaticanae" where, to make things worse, "status" means "state" and "civitas" means "city". At this point, I'm at "Status civicus", but any other suggestions are welcome. Sigur (disputatio) 17:13, 24 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

To not use civitas would be a crime, I'd say. Our Civitas (discretiva) has Status civitatis. But if the Vatican is misleading anything on the lines of Civitas (status) or civitas (ius civium) might do (?).--Xaverius 17:49, 24 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
For English 'citizenship', Cassell's (1968) and Traupman (2007) give one and only one Latin word: civitas, with no further explanation. Furthermore, the primary definition of civitas in L&S is "the condition or privileges of a (Roman) citizen, citizenship, freedom of the city." The suggested status civitatis might seem to mean 'citizenship status', which would seem so general as to include noncitizens. (Q. "What's your citizenship status?" A. "I'm a resident alien.") So I'd say Xaverius, who generously tore himself away from his rugby scrumming so as to comment, is on the right track with regard to our trying to avoid gratuitous criminality. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 19:26, 24 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
I usually keep an eye on here! And I have been working a lot recently on citizenship after Rome and the use of civis in 6th-7th c. texts, so this immediately drew my attention!--Xaverius 10:19, 26 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Hmm. If there is nothing else, I think I will go for "Civitas (ius civium)" then ("Civitas" alone is already taken and thus not an option). Sigur (disputatio) 23:25, 24 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
I agree with others that "civitas" is the correct term. In fact its use in the sense of "body politic, state" must really be derived from this, but both uses are common in classical writers, notably Cicero. Hence it eventually came to be a synonym for "urbs", and we do see examples of that on Vicipaedia (notably in the name of Civitas Capitis), but it's better to avoid that usage in general -- "civitas" has enough meanings already. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:33, 25 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Listing the redlinksRecensere

Does Vicipaedia have a list of redlinks ranked by the number of articles in which they appear? The purpose & utility of such a list would be obvious. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:21, 10 Martii 2019 (UTC)

I've wondered about this myself, but now you have asked, I've sneaked around a bit. Found this. Sigur (disputatio) 18:38, 10 Martii 2019 (UTC)
Macte! Gratias! This is a surprise, but many of those at the top of the list have titles that suggest that they're among the oldest redlinks in the whole project! Nobody wants to deal with them! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:45, 10 Martii 2019 (UTC)
The list is certainly useful. I have the impression Lesgles has regularly worked from it.
Keep in mind that many of the items are in that list because they feature in just one infobox or navigation box that appears on that number of existing pages. So the need for the new page (and the reliability of its name) may depend entirely on the judgment of the Vicipaedian who created the one infobox or navbox. That having been said, if the list gives people ideas for new pages, that's great!
That and other useful automatically-compiled lists are accessed via the "Paginae speciales" link on the left, or by typing Specialis:Paginae speciales. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:05, 11 Martii 2019 (UTC)
Yes, it's far from anyone's idea of the most important missing articles (VP:10000 is better for that). But I've sometimes found it satisfying to knock them off. And right now the ones at the top are Roman subjects (linked to from Formula:De Roma antiqua), which would certainly be good to have. Lesgles (disputatio) 03:05, 12 Martii 2019 (UTC)
Yes, adding articles on the 10K list is important, but so is the blueing of redlinks. I was surprised, however, at the numbers at the high end of the tally. Using the Quaerere box, I'd noticed that Inflorescentia was a redlink in thirtysome articles, and that seemed like a lot! So I promptly added the article. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 04:14, 12 Martii 2019 (UTC)
Macte! Lesgles (disputatio) 13:18, 13 Martii 2019 (UTC)

Hmm, it looks like Specialis:Paginae desideratae, the former version of Vicipaedia:Dump/Paginae desideratae, is actually being refreshed, despite the note at the top. Perhaps Usor:UV can confirm this; it might save UVbot some work.

Yes, Specialis:Paginae desideratae has been working again for some time now. I have now updated the description of Vicipaedia:Dump/Paginae desideratae accordingly. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 20:24, 15 Martii 2019 (UTC)

Typographical botherRecensere

For the past week or so, Vicipaedia has been ignoring linebreaks in texts composed offline and uploaded into the harenarium (an editing page of the "fontem recensere" kind). The result is one huge paragraph, with not even a blankspace marking where the paragraph breaks should be. This has been happening whether the texts had been composed in Microsoft Word or on an email platform. Can anything be done about it? If the condition persists, the addition of long articles (and long bibliographies) will have to be minimized. Time is not infinite, at least for mortals. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 20:38, 10 Martii 2019 (UTC)

This is not something I've noticed, as I normally compose directly in the Wiki edit window, or else in a text editor; I've never found MS Word useful in this context. Others could perhaps help ...
Do double line breaks solve the problem? That would be my first move. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:20, 11 Martii 2019 (UTC)
No, nor do triple linebreaks. All linebreaks disappear. I don't recall precisely when the problem began, but "about a week ago" would be close. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:06, 11 Martii 2019 (UTC)

Mutationes (modestae) primae paginae nostraeRecensere

Mutationes quasdam in pagina experimentali Vicipaedia:Pagina prima/Nova vides. Res utiles e Porta communi in columnam dextram inserui, et praecipue "translationem hebdomadis" quaque hebdomade inter Vicipaedias omnes propositam, apud nos ab Usor:UV monstratam. Quibus rebus mutatis, portam communem cum pagina prima contribui suadeo. Ita unam portam, quotidie renovatam, omnibus lectoribus praebere possumus. Quid dicite, o amici?

Quis novas nugas "Scin tu ...?" quaque hebdomade addere velit?

Please look at Vicipaedia:Pagina prima/Nova: you will see some (modest) proposed changes to our pagina prima. In the right column I have placed the most useful items from the present Porta communis. This includes the "translation of the week", a cross-wiki project which UV maintains here: I think it will get better visibility on the pagina prima. I suggest that if this material is incorporated in the pagina prima, the porta communis can then be merged with it. We will have a single front page or portal, updated every day, to welcome all users. What do you think?

Who would like to add a new "Did you know ...?" once a week? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:25, 22 Martii 2019 (UTC)

Would another magistrate check . . .Recensere

. . . to be doubly sure that the deletion of Morphema ["Aylin (Disputatio | conlationes) delevit paginam Morphema ‎(contenta fuerant: "{{delete|No userful content.--WikiBayer (disputatio) 06:17, 30 Martii 2019 (UTC)}} ProRealTime help videos")"] was well advised? Of course it may have been, but could we be sure? Certainly an article having that title is mandatory, even for a small wiki. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:56, 30 Martii 2019 (UTC)

Seconded. Quite some pages link to it, including Pagina prima. At the very least a redirect to Morphologia (linguistica) would be warranted, I think. Sigur (disputatio) 12:56, 30 Martii 2019 (UTC)
As the quoted material above says, the content of the page was "ProRealTime help videos," obviously nothing to do with morphology. It looks like somebody grabbed a red link to put in something resembling advertising, but rather ineptly as there wasn't even a spam link in the page. So deletion of that page was entirely appropriate, I'd say. But I agree that we should have an article defining morphemes, if somebody feels like writing a real one. A. Mahoney (disputatio) 13:34, 30 Martii 2019 (UTC)
Yes, Aylin was right. Sigur, you certainly could do as you suggest ... but creating a real page on this real topic would be better! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:07, 30 Martii 2019 (UTC)
OK, fine. I wanted to be sure a vandal hadn't replaced a genuine text with a false text and then Aylin hadn't inadvertently deleted the genuine article. Whoever wants to write it is welcome to do so! Strangely, it seems not to be one of the 10,000 most important articles, though Phonema is. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:26, 30 Martii 2019 (UTC)
That's a good point. Surely both WikiBayer and Aylin checked this, but it's always possible to overlook it and I did just re-check. It was a new page, probably created from the redlink on the pagina prima, at 06:15. I notice that the timelords were on to it very quickly: WikiBayer added the delete template at 06:17 (and evidently meant to write "no useful content").
The good news: this represents one more click on our pagina prima! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:37, 30 Martii 2019 (UTC)
There's already a general article on morphology, but I agree that we need a technical presentation of morphema which should focus on analytical issues in defining this important concept. Neander (disputatio) 19:55, 30 Martii 2019 (UTC)

Paginae cottidianaeRecensere

A die 3 Martii usque ad 14 Martii abeo. An quis velit quotidie novam paginam cottidianam in pagina prima inserere? Facile fit: praecepta ad caput paginae Vicipaedia:Index paginarum cottidianarum videbis. Si die aliquo omittis, eadem pagina duos dies celebrabitur ... id parvi momenti est.

Novas paginas inter "Nuper mutata" quaerere solebo, a variis Vicipaedianis scriptas, quae ad minimum textum bene legibilem nexumque externum fidelem ... et, si utile sit, imaginem ... contineant. Enumerationem paginarum recentissimarum non iam promotarum ibidem reperis. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:02, 30 Martii 2019 (UTC)

Usor:Xaverius respondit! Illo omnibusque gratias ago ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:53, 31 Martii 2019 (UTC)

Quaeso, auxilium ad corrigereRecensere

Quaeso, auxilium ad corrigere hunc articulum

"Claimnant", "Claim", "Pretender"Recensere

Salve! I'm currently in the process of working up a draft of an article on the House of Stuart, and I'm wondering about Latin terms for the Latin words for these royalist concepts: claimnat/claim, and pretende, in the sense of " the throne". I want to use them in the sense of the fact that the Kings of England claimed that they were Kings of France, and in the sense that James Francis Edward and his heirs claimed the thrones of England, Scotland, and Ireland (and France!). Any guidance on translation of these terms? I know simulator, which may work for the more pejoritave use of "pretender" (especially for modern pretenders of dead monarchies), but what about the more neutral claim/claimnant? — Seltaeb Eht | Dice mihi! 22:57, 5 Aprilis 2019 (UTC)

According to Traupman, a pretender to a throne is a petitor, as is apparently a claimant to anything; Cassell's, however, has petitor in only a legal sense; for a claimant to a throne, it has no single noun, but suggests a clause: qui regnum sibi adrogat (or adfectat). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 00:45, 6 Aprilis 2019 (UTC)
Thanks! I think claim/claimant in this case at least derives from the legal sense of "claim", so petitor is probably appropriate. — Seltaeb Eht | Dice mihi! 17:27, 6 Aprilis 2019 (UTC)


Nescio, utrum in vicipaedia la. aliquando de hoc nomine disputatum sit. Mihi quidem litterà c pro t scriptum insuetum videtur. Fortasse imprimis scriptio theodisca (et pro! latina more theodisco facta) mihi nota est. Sed quaerens etymologica huius nominis lego in interrete: de bono fato tractum esse. Suntne fontes, quibus coniectura ista bonum faciens nititur? (Si non, nonne Bonifatius scribendum sit?) --Bavarese (disputatio) 14:35, 6 Aprilis 2019 (UTC)

In Forcellini Onomastico legimus:

BŎNĬFĀTĬUS, ĭi, m. 2. (bonum et fatum) Gr. Βονιφάτιος in ep. Anat. ad Leon. p. ep. 101. — Bonifatius, hieronica in Pseudomoneta reperitur, de quo Eckkel 8. p. 293. — Bonifacius ex pronuntiatione ortum, quae rursus falsam originationem traxit, nunc bis legitur in titulo infimae aetatis (Corp. I. L. 8. 898., et 9. 3512), in libris utraque scriptura paene promiscue habetur (Cf. Heraeus, Sprache des Petronius p. 29). — Bonifa v. Bonifas per sync. in Inscr. apud De Rossi, Inscr. Chr. T. 1. p. 195. n. 446., ubi tamen Momms. pro Bonifae legeret Bonitae.

Quia ambae scripturae in fontibus reperiuntur, tecum opinor nobis scripturam "rectam" sequi decere. Lesgles (disputatio) 15:21, 7 Aprilis 2019 (UTC)
Sane Sanctus Bonifacius, vicus Minnesotensis, non neglegendus est? :D IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:45, 7 Aprilis 2019 (UTC)


Is there a way we could distinguish between a fan and a fanatic? I think Fanaticus could cover both, but the Lexicon Recentus Latinitatis gives Admiratores studiosissimi. I don't know if maybe Factiosus would be a more "classical" alternative (circus factions?).--Xaverius 14:41, 25 Aprilis 2019 (UTC)

Traupman distinguishes between fautor 'fan' and fanaticus 'fanatic'. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:48, 25 Aprilis 2019 (UTC)
Does that fautor derive from faveo then?--Xaverius 16:16, 25 Aprilis 2019 (UTC)
Cassell's says it does: "originally favitor, from faveo." IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:19, 25 Aprilis 2019 (UTC)
Would then either Litterae fautoribus scriptae or Litterae fautorum work as interim entries for "fan fiction"?
(something on the lines of) '''Litterae fautoribus scriptae'''{{convertimus}} aut '''Litterae fautorum''' (vulgo ''fanfic'' vel ''fan fiction'') est genus pseudo-litterarium in quo [[fautor]]es cuidam historias derivativas scribent de historiis praeclaris ab aliis creatis. His in historiis scriptores fanatici personas et locos proprios narrationum originalium utuntur sed in historiis novis, quae non publicatae sunt ab auctoribus originalibus. Haec litterae fautorum florent in [[interrete]].
--Xaverius 16:30, 25 Aprilis 2019 (UTC)
"a fautoribus" I would hope. The agent, when human, deserves the preposition and the reader needs it. Without it, "fautoribus" could mean to, for, with or from, not just by. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:06, 25 Aprilis 2019 (UTC)
Vicipaedia already has a link to Fictio fautorum in the article on Fictio, but the link is red. You could turn it blue! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 19:10, 25 Aprilis 2019 (UTC)
Indeed. Shorter is better. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:19, 25 Aprilis 2019 (UTC)


Hodie est quingentesimus festus dies anniversarius Leonardi Vincii mortui! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 20:12, 2 Maii 2019 (UTC)

adiuva meRecensere

Nos autem quaeritis qui sunt nota cum latine. オムジー (disputatio) 09:08, 5 Mail 2019 (UTC)

De tribus investigatoribus et terrore in via Sheldon StreetRecensere

Why isn't the formula {{Titulus italicus}} working in this article? It's working in other articles that have been checked today. (We may silently pass over the redundancy of "via Sheldon Street.") IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:36, 7 Maii 2019 (UTC)

Others will confirm, but I think it's about the length; I see something in the code about 50 characters or less. In the meantime, we can use DISPLAYTITLE. Lesgles (disputatio) 13:26, 7 Maii 2019 (UTC)
It's working now. Macte! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:34, 7 Maii 2019 (UTC)
Yes, the redundancy is painful, but it's a published translation so there it stands ... until the buyers of the book succeed in their demand for a corrected reprint :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:58, 7 Maii 2019 (UTC)
Maybe, but the world has some long-standing examples of interlingual redundancy, of which the best known in the Pacific may be Mount Maunganui in New Zealand, maunga in Maori meaning 'mountain', so that gives you 'Mount Big-Mountain'. :) IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:34, 7 Maii 2019 (UTC)


For the concept of whaling, is everybody OK with balaenatio, from Du Cange's "balenatio, piscatio balenarum"? (Or since, according to modern understanding, whales aren't fishes, perhaps it could be defined as venatio/venatus balaenarum or cetaceorum?) Is there any classical term? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:55, 14 Maii 2019 (UTC)

Interesting! It seems that even if the Romans hunted whales, there's no written record of it. I like the conciseness of balaenatio. If we go for the phrase, I don't think we need to be too picky about piscatio, though maybe venatio is in fact better because of the active nature of the activity. From Ælfric's Colloquy: "ire cum multis navibus in venationem ballene" [AS: on huntunge hranes] (DMLBS). Hran, by the way, is "(a small kind of) whale" (Dictionary of Old English). Lesgles (disputatio) 15:19, 14 Maii 2019 (UTC)
The problem of "piscatio" is merely one of classification within the text of Du Cange. It doesn't affect us. We know what the lexicographer means, and the information we are given is 100% good: "bal[a]enatio" is a sourced medieval Latin word meaning "whaling".
It's not only Du Cange and his continuators -- D'Arcy Thompson, also, failed to get hooked by classification. In A Glossary of Greek Fishes (1948), note the title, he includes whales and includes Latin. So he gives the word "cetarius" for a catcher of "κῆτοι = ceti". And I suppose we could use "cetarius" to mean whaler, but we'd have to define it when first using it, because classical usage just seems to imply "catcher of big sea-creatures". Thompson does not note any derivatives of "φάλαινα = balaena".
I bought that 1948 book, from new stock, in London in the 1980s. I could still find the shop, but I expect it sells DVDs now.
Adding for completeness' sake: English balinger (OED, "whaling ship") is said to derive from French baleinier from Latin "balaenarius". I have not seen examples of the Latin word in use with any such sense, but it has existed as an adjective, meaning e.g. made from whale meat or bone. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:34, 15 Maii 2019 (UTC)
Summing up the present terminology then: the name of the practice of whaling (which might even become a lemma) = balaenatio. A short definition of that name might = venatio/venatus balaenarum. A whaler (person) = cetarius. A whaler (ship) = navis cetaria. OK? (Or why not balaenarius and navis balaenaria?) All of this is complicated by the fact that Cetacea is a technical term in taxonomy, as are Balaena, the general term for 'whale' (one of the 10,000 most important articles), and Balaena, a genus of whales. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:38, 15 Maii 2019 (UTC)
On the whale/fish question, by the way, see also Trying Leviathan: The Nineteenth-Century New York Court Case That Put the Whale on Trial and Challenged the Order of Nature. Lesgles (disputatio) 15:29, 15 Maii 2019 (UTC)


I see two adjectives being used for "Flemish" here: Flamingus and Flandrensis. Both are attested (the latter more than the former), but I was wondering whether we shouldn't systematise either using just one or in the way French and German do, where flandrien (flandrisch) refers to the former County of Flanders or the modern-day provinces of East and West Flanders (Flandrensis), while flamand (flämisch) is used for the (larger) modern region of Flanders (Flamingus). Sigur (disputatio) 06:40, 15 Maii 2019 (UTC)

An hanc distinctionem (vel fortasse aliam) e fontibus Latinis extrahere possumus? "Flamingus" mihi gentilicium sonat, "Flandrensis" rem geographicam, sed fontes non inspexi. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 07:39, 15 Maii 2019 (UTC)
That's another possibility as well. Flamingus is rather rare in the first place, but what I've seen might all be gentilicii. Can it be used as an adjective then? It is used in Communitas Flaminga (which is indeed supposed to relate to people, not a territory) here on Vicipaedia. Sigur (disputatio) 08:37, 15 Maii 2019 (UTC)
Systematization is good! But, as is often the case, the situation is complicated. The word Flemish has five linguistic meanings, but these can all be covered in a single article, as in the English wikipedia. The word Flanders, however, has two geographic senses: French Flanders and Zeelandic Flanders, and each of these may deserve its own article. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:55, 15 Maii 2019 (UTC)
Not to complicate things, but here are a few more:
Of course none of these refer to specific geographical boundaries. Just gramatically speaking, unless we find a source for flamingus adj., I think it should be Communitas Flamingensis/Flandrensis/Flandrica. I'm also a little hesistant about making a sharp distinction that isn't in the Latin sources (and Dutch/Flemish seems to get by without the distinction). Lesgles (disputatio) 15:20, 15 Maii 2019 (UTC)
So, I think that we can retain Flamingus as a noun and for the time being exclude it as an adjective. Now, for the adjective, we probably should either pick just one (at least within one article; I'm thinking of Belgica) or use them according to an objective criterion; just having an arbitrary mix is too confusing. Sigur (disputatio) 16:37, 15 Maii 2019 (UTC)
And, Iacobe, the two main geographic senses of "Flanders" are (a) the former County of Flanders and (b) the modern Region of Flanders. The two you named (French Flanders and Zeelandic Flanders) are little bits that were parts of (a) but are not part of (b) (due to the fact of not being in Belgium in the first place). Sigur (disputatio) 19:12, 15 Maii 2019 (UTC)
Excellent! That makes for four geographic senses, each of which deserves its own article. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 19:28, 15 Maii 2019 (UTC)
@Lesgles: I confirm, Dutch has no distinction as flamand/flandrien in French. I've heard them lump together the names of the modern provinces (Oost-West-Vlaanderen) when they want to refer to the old county (as far as it is in Belgium), but that's the best they can do. Sigur (disputatio) 19:12, 15 Maii 2019 (UTC)

I intend to go through the article "Belgica" which might benefit from some little revisions here and there. At this point and pending any further insights, I think I will put all relevant adjectives to "Flandricus, -a, -um". It's the most straightforward one I can think of when I start from "Flandria" and it makes a nice parallelism with "Wallonicus" (as in "Brabantia Flandrica" and "Brabantia Wallonica"). That being said, I have mixed feelings about all of them, so if others prefer a different one, I'll be fine with that, too. Sigur (disputatio) 10:45, 16 Maii 2019 (UTC)

That sounds good for now, and thanks for working on it! By the way, for the old county the predominant Latin name seems to be Comitatus Flandriae. Lesgles (disputatio) 14:42, 16 Maii 2019 (UTC)


Could someone fix the cladogram formula in Eubalaena? and in another whale-related article (one forgets which)? It doesn't print right. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 19:59, 19 Maii 2019 (UTC)

Currently it doesn't exist, so it doesn't print at all! Sorry, I don't think I can help. The en:wiki Template:Cladogram requires Lua, a language unknown to me. You might try asking Usor:Andreas Raether, who has bravely had a go at Lua. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:33, 20 Maii 2019 (UTC)
Vespere id scrutabor. Andreas Raether (disputatio) 12:56, 20 Maii 2019 (UTC)
Opus in progressu ... Andreas Raether (disputatio) 20:31, 20 Maii 2019 (UTC)
Macte! Vicipaedia may once have had cladograms that worked (in case that helps). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 21:55, 20 Maii 2019 (UTC)
And it still does! See Eua zebrina. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 21:57, 20 Maii 2019 (UTC)
Tatum partim, Iacobe. Donec nullae variabiles necesse erunt: paginae quidem Eua zebrina non sunt, paginae vero Eubalaena quantitas variabilis nomine cladogram est. Nunc breviter versio parva addidi (versionem pristinam clausi - non delevi ...), vide: →Eubalaena←. Andreas Raether (disputatio) 21:38, 21 Maii 2019 (UTC)

Carmen ad Pietatem a Michaele Angelo sculptamRecensere

Auxilium vestrum, o sodales, precor. Aliquando fortuito in nostra Vicipaedia legi carmen de illa Pietà: nostris temporibus latine scriptum (prima strophà sapphica, si recte memini), perfectissime, ut puto, elaboratum. Quamvis cupiens id relegere, nomen auctoris oblitus illam paginam non reperio. Si quis vestrum mihi auxilio venire potest, facite quaeso. ---Bavarese (disputatio) 16:51, 12 Iunii 2019 (UTC)


Is the proposed category "Mala," referring to apples and corresponding with en:Category:Apples (itself a subcategory of calegories "Malus" and "Edible fruits"), OK? or does it want to be "Mala (fructus)"? or what? Vide commentarios "Malum aureum" et "Malum Discordiae." IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:20, 14 Iunii 2019 (UTC)

I'd say go ahead with "Categoria:Mala". The homonym "bad things" is surely not a sufficiently neutral concept to justify a category. With us, too, it should be a subcategory of Categoria:Fructus and Categoria:Malus (the botanical genus). Some pages currently in the latter would probably fit better in your new category. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:33, 14 Iunii 2019 (UTC)

Propensiones sexualesRecensere

We have had a page Homophylophilia for quite some time now. Iacobus has now created Heterosexualitas and Bisexualitas. I actually don't have anything against these words (in spite of our earlier discussion above, but what bugs me is the incoherent terminology. If we keep them, we should move to Homosexualitas as well. The way it is now, it doesn't only look messy, but even suspicious. What do you think? Sigur (disputatio) 14:40, 17 Iunii 2019 (UTC)

Not suspicious: it rather reflects the difficulty of finding good Latin terminology. The Web offers far more sources now than it did a few years back, hence the task becomes easier. To the etymologist Homosexualitas has the same irritating problem that Heterosexualitas and Televisio have, but the etymologist will bow to the power of sources showing actual Latin usage. Demonstrate that, and then (if sources prove the point) move the page, I suggest. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:00, 17 Iunii 2019 (UTC)
The word bisexualitas seems to have been attested all the way back to 1899, but that word could be said to be more purely native, in that it doesn't have the linguistic miscegenation seen in the hetero and homo forms. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 17:25, 17 Iunii 2019 (UTC)
As for "homosexualitas", the Latin word has (since 1986) strong support in the official incipit-title of the pastoral letter Homosexualitatis problema. We don't yet have an article on this document, but see e.g. the English en:On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons. The Latin text of the document is here. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:54, 17 Iunii 2019 (UTC)

OK, so, if that is the only criterion, then consider this: Google gave me 13500 hits for "homosexualitas" and 12100 hits for "homosexualitatis", while there were only 2270 hits for "homophylophilia" (of which roughly half seem to be on some kind of wiki or in a text copied from here) and 133 hits for "homophylophiliae". From before August 2006 (when Homosexualitas was moved to Homophylophilia): 113 hits for "homosexualitas"; 91 hits for "homosexualitatis"; 7 hits for "homophylophilia" (of which one on Vicipaedia) and 0 hits for "homophylophiliae". On Google books, I've found "homosexualitas" in decent Latin texts in 1960 ([1] - [2]), in a German one in 1904 ([3]). For "homophylophilia", Google Books gave me three hits pre-August 2006, i.e. two unavailable books (National Union Catalog and Subject Catalog of the Library of Congress) and one obvious linguistic purist already ranting about erroneous constructions from Greek and Latin roots ([4]). I think that one of the hits for "homophylophilia" gives the correct definition: One of many words proposed as a substitute for homosexuality. It never caught on. (granted, this one is supposed to be English, not Latin). I also checked all the online dictionaries on Lexilogos, none had "homophylophilia", two did have "homosexualitas". And not to forget, authorities in the only state on Earth having Latin as an official language use "homosexualitas" ([5]). So, I think that sources for "homosexualitas" are overwhelming, while those for "homophylophilia" are doubtful because most of them probably stem from Vicipaedia itself. Personally, I'm still willing to go the puristic etymologist's way, but only if it allows us to be consistent. (Concerning "bisexualitas", yes we found it as meaning "binary sex system" only, earlier on, but the change in meaning happend to German "Bisexualität" (according to German Wikipedia), so why not in Latin? That's at least as justifiable as "diphylophilia".) Move? Sigur (disputatio) 19:15, 17 Iunii 2019 (UTC) (PS: Just in case: Litterae homosexuales or homosexualitatis? Sigur (disputatio) 21:04, 17 Iunii 2019 (UTC))

Consentio. Vocabulum "Homophylophilia" paene nusquam, nisi in vicipaedia. Etiam in libro "Neues Latein Lexicon" (1998) nuncupato: "Homosexualität. f Homosexualitas, tatis,f" Jeanthorlon (disputatio) 19:40, 17 Iunii 2019 (UTC)
OK. As no-one seems to stress out about "homosexualitas", I will move the page and start to do consequential changes. Sigur (disputatio) 12:38, 18 Iunii 2019 (UTC)
You pointed out that the page was long ago moved from "Homosexualitas": I didn't know that. The move was made by Usor:Iustinus, who is still occasionally active. Although the evidence for "Homosexualitas" is compelling, I suggest you mention your new move on his talk page and pause for a couple of days before making many "consequential changes". OK? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:09, 18 Iunii 2019 (UTC)
I'll rather draw his attention before moving, then. Sigur (disputatio) 13:34, 18 Iunii 2019 (UTC)
Since the fully Hellenicized term has gained some currency on the internet, why not keep it as a secondary lemma, e.g.: "Homosexualitas sive homophylophilia{{Convertimus}}," much as I did for Bisexualitas. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:12, 18 Iunii 2019 (UTC)
My Intention. Sigur (disputatio) 13:34, 18 Iunii 2019 (UTC)
If we have a sourced lemma, I am in the habit of deleting alternative lemmas that have no sources, and I predict I will soon be deleting the suggeted "diphylophilia" at bisexualitas if it doesn't get a source meanwhile! On the other hand, if we can cite a reasonable source for "homophylophilia", that's fine. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:25, 18 Iunii 2019 (UTC)

Aliae res de coitu humanoRecensere

Meanwhile, those interested in the general topic might wish to boost Vicipaedia's score in the list of 10 000 most important topics by creating articles corresponding to en:Foreplay, en:Prostitution, and en:Sexual attraction—or, for that matter, corresponding to other anthropologically oriented topics in the whole list: Vicipaedia:Paginae_quas_omnibus_Wikipediis_contineri_oportet/Expansio/Anthropologia_et_psychologia. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:21, 18 Iunii 2019 (UTC)

De schizophreniaRecensere

Categoriam quaero quae ad en:Categoria:Schizophrenia researchers respondeat. "Schizophrenologus" nusquam, "Schizophrenista" rarissime contextu Anglico tantum reperitur. An possum Categoria:Schizophreniae quaesitores? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:42, 21 Iunii 2019 (UTC)

Mi nomen categoriae Anglicae non libet, quoniam plurimi ductorum istic hominum non totum ad schizophreniam se conferunt/contulerunt; per exemplum en:Patricia Goldman-Rakic imprimis in neuroscientia corticis frontalis, non singillatim schizophreniae, divulgavit; Si quidem categoria haec in Latinam instituatur, tum schizophreniae investigatores concipiam. "Schizophrenologus" seu "schizophrenista" quicumque iuxta schizophreniam esse oportebat, cum "sanus" tum "aeger", rear. Andreas Raether (disputatio) 16:26, 21 Iunii 2019 (UTC)
Si usitatissimam Latinitatem neglegere liceat, equidem etiam vocem exquisitoris probem, praeterea exploratoris, siquidem Apuleium libeat sequi, apud quem (in Floridis 18.32) legimus, Thalem Milesium [...] naturae rerum certissmum (vel clarissimum) exploratorem fuisse. --Bavarese (disputatio) 12:25, 22 Iunii 2019 (UTC)

Motus contra armas nucleares?Recensere

Ignarus sum, quo modo haec categoria moveatur ad "Motus contra arma nuclearia" (vel ad aliud nomen - sit venia verbo: - Latinius). --Bavarese (disputatio) 11:51, 22 Iunii 2019 (UTC)

Movebo et tibi monstrabo quomodo facere, sed, primo loco, an alius quis de optimo titulo disputare vult? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:19, 22 Iunii 2019 (UTC)

contribuere potest/scitRecensere

In mea pagina usoris pro "contribuere potest" velim scribere "contribuere scit", qua voce uti satius esse puto. Nescio autem, quo modo haec mutatio in babel fieri possit. Si placet, ita, quaeso, facite. -Bavarese (disputatio) 13:44, 24 Iunii 2019 (UTC)

This can be changed at translatewiki:: [6]. --UV (disputatio) 18:42, 24 Iunii 2019 (UTC)

De categoriis communium FrancicorumRecensere

Helveticus Montanus paginas circiter 36,000 (sic) creavit de communibus Francicis, brevissimas, sed fontibus munitas. Quaeque pagina unam categoriam habet, i.e. "Communia praefecturae ..." Praefecturae singulae inter 100 et 800 communia habent (regiones Francicae singulae inter 1000 et 6000 communia habere videntur).

Regimine Francico numerum communium iam cito reducente, categorizationem secundam harum paginarum propono. UVbot potest, nisi fallor, categoriam "Loci habitati praefecturae ..." aut "Loci habitati regionis ..." in has paginas addere (gratias usori UV ago!). Utilitas huius categorizationis perdurabit, quia numerus locorum habitatorum haud reducetur. An quis abnuit? An quis aliam rationem categorizationis proponere velit? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:18, 25 Iunii 2019 (UTC)

Proposal of the Collaboration between Latin and Classical Chinese WikipediaRecensere

Hello, fellow Wikipedians of the Latin Wikipedia!

We are the Wikipedians of the Classical Chinese Wikipedia, a classical language Wikimedia community. Latin Wikipedia, being a community of a well-known classical language enjoying rich culture, great influence on the world and a long history, has a prosperous community with numerous goods and active users, the number of both greatly exceeds ours.

It would be a great honour for us, if, just like the previous collaborations between Chinese and Urdu Wikipedia, that the community of the Latin Wikipedia could collaborate with us, the Classical Chinese Wikipedia. As the previous examples had shown, collaborations like this would be beneficial for both of our communities, and would help the two language communities to understand each other. We would be more than happy to see the success of the collaboration, and the request is the reason of leaving this message on the Village Pump.

May the Latin Wikipedia continue to flourish! We hope the collaboration takes place as soon as possible.

-丁子君 (disputatio) 09:29, 3 Iulii 2019 (UTC), An Admin of Classical Chinese Wikipedia

As an administrator of the Classical Chinese Wikipedia, I would be glad to cooperate with Latin Wikipedia. I think it is a rare opportunity for the Classical Chinese Wikipedia to improve its content relating to Latin culture. We are organizing a content contest to encourage Classical Chinese Wikipedians to create articles that were included in Latin Wikipedia but were not included in the Classical Chinese Wikipedia. Does anyone here has interest in holding context contests to improve articles about Eastern Asia which were included in Classical Chinese Wikipedia while has not been included here? Davidzdh (disputatio) 07:39, 4 Iulii 2019 (UTC)
I would like to see this collaboration happen, but I am not sure how much I could help in reality -- because I don't know any Chinese. I am sure there are important subjects covered in the Classical Chinese Wikipedia that are not covered here. OK: how could we identify them and how could we transfer them? My experience of machine translation into Latin does not fill me with optimism. We need people who know both languages. I have known a few such people, but none of the ones I know are Wikipedians! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:40, 5 Iulii 2019 (UTC)
A few Chinese subjects may be remaining in the list of 10,000 articles that every wikipedia should have. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:00, 5 Iulii 2019 (UTC)
Personally, I think that the articles about the entire East Asia (Greater China, Japan, Korea and Vietnam) would do.--丁子君 (disputatio) 13:46, 6 Iulii 2019 (UTC)

Hello! We have established the project page of the Collaboration in the Classical Chinese Wikipedia. We hope that the Latin Wikipedia could establish a corresponding one. Thank you!--丁子君 (disputatio) 13:46, 6 Iulii 2019 (UTC)

All of you will find the collaboration a little easier if you use the following markup (instead of full url addresses):

Note: The leading colon is important; without it, you create a manual interwiki link instead of an in-line link. StevenJ81 (disputatio) 14:59, 9 Iulii 2019 (UTC)

De Vicivia in incubatore latenteRecensere

Quaestio ponitur hic: An volumus creationem definitivam incepti Viciviae (i.e. Wikivoyage Latinae) postulare? Inceptum experimentalem in incubatore anno 2013 creavi (vide incubator:wy/la/Pagina prima) una cum Anne Mahoney et UV. Ibi autem non iam laboro quod (mea mente) melius est hic in Vicipaedia laborare! Nisi quis disputare velit, ego ibi propositionem deprecabor. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:45, 9 Iulii 2019 (UTC)


I'm considering the creation of a page on gender. Now, as the English article rightly points out, the definition of the term is far from being as consensual as some might like to pretend. There is of course the widespread use in social sciences opposing (biological) sex to (social) gender, but others use both terms as synonyms or replace "sex" by "gender" in all cases (except for intercourse) - Google gives me 157 000 hits for "biological gender". For the article, this doesn't seem very difficult to me: Explain the widespread usage in English (emulated in some other languages), but also mention the other usages. My issue is the title. An obvious title would be Genus (societas) to which there are already eight redlinks. But unless I'm mistaken, there is nothing like the widespread English usage in Latin. Therefore, simply giving "genus" as the self-evident translation would, in my view, be taking sides in the culture war - and thus not NPOV. Thus, I would tend to keep the English term "gender" (in italics) and of course offer "genus" to anyone who wants to make the difference. But I will be fine with whatever else can gather a consensus. Sigur (disputatio) 09:15, 26 Iulii 2019 (UTC)

The concept was introduced to the world of ideas [in 1955] in English, in which gender was a handy term, just hanging around under-used, because grammatical gender is of very minor importance in English.
So what do speakers of other languages, in which grammatical gender is important, use for this new concept? Some (e.g. German) borrow the English term (de:Gender), while others (e.g. French) adopt the existing grammatical term, hence the French Wikipedia article has a disambiguating parenthesis (fr:Genre (sciences sociales)).
We are bound to take account of Latin sources if they exist. I feel sure that someone on Nuntii Latini, the Ephemeris, or indeed the Acta Sanctae Sedis, must have faced this question before us ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:28, 26 Iulii 2019 (UTC)
German has Geschlecht for both (biological or other) sex and grammatical gender, so generally the distinction is made with an adjective (biologisches Geschlecht - soziales Geschlecht); use of the anglicism is limited. As for actual Neo-Latin usage, yes please, anyone who finds sources, please give them! And if the Acta Sanctae Sedis distinguishes between sexus and genus, I won't be worried about the culture war anymore :) That being said, I'd happily settle for Nuntii Latini or Ephemeris, as well. Sigur (disputatio) 10:36, 26 Iulii 2019 (UTC)
There's some relevant material in ASS of 2016: see pages 423-426. I think I see "persona" being used in the sense of identity and "genus" several times in the sense of gender. See what you think. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:11, 26 Iulii 2019 (UTC)
That's an interesting source. In the part you refer to, I see "generis" once clearly referring to the body, once clearly referring to roles and behaviour (while the English version gets away without either sex or gender). I would rather see that as an attestation of synonymous usage of the two words. In point 56, there also is an interesting sentence: "Ignorari non debet «biologicum sexum (Anglice sex) et sociale culturale officium sexus (Anglice gender) discerni posse, at non seiungi»." And at the beginning of that point, the text refers to an ideology "quae vulgo Anglico sermone gender vocata". So, I don't think that Amoris Laetitia accredits usage of the sex/gender dichotomy, but it seems not to entirely reject the usage of genus for sex/gender. Sigur (disputatio) 15:34, 26 Iulii 2019 (UTC)
Thanks ... you can tell I wasn't reading very carefully ... More interested in Latin sources for wine right now ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:04, 26 Iulii 2019 (UTC)

Found "Senatus Gallicus probat legem qua hominum eiusdem generis nuptiae et liberorum adoptio liceant" here. At this point, I would tend towards "Genus (societas)" as page title, but "Gender" as primary lemma and "genus" as secondary lemma only (because the whole linguistic issue doesn't take place in Latin, even if we can find a translation here and there). Sigur (disputatio) 18:21, 26 Iulii 2019 (UTC)

Yes! It seems to me that what you are suggesting for a pagename is what most other languages have done -- and we can cite a Latin source or two -- while including "Gender" as a lemma acknowledges the choice the German Wikipedians made. Without stronger sources, we could hardly do better, I think. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:30, 27 Iulii 2019 (UTC)

Can we use secus as indicated in Traupman? --Jondel (disputatio) 02:01, 17 Augusti 2019 (UTC)


Regarding trans men and trans women (these are the English terms currently in vogue), the article Transgener leaves a lot to be desired. And for people whose gender self-identification matches the sex to which they were assigned at birth, we have the even newer English adjective cisgender. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:03, 26 Iulii 2019 (UTC)

Yes. I tried to tidy up that page a bit some time ago - but indeed leaving a lot to be desired. Having transgener and cisgener already pleads for genus because that's the root (the bigener referred to there for the form has the root genus in a different meaning). On the other hand, this is also consistent with a synonymous usage of sexus and genus. So, there may be room to use genus in the page title and stay NPOV. As to Transgener, any suggestions for improving that page are welcome... Sigur (disputatio) 15:55, 26 Iulii 2019 (UTC)

De nomine NairoRecensere

Habemus nomen Latinum pro Nairo, praenomine Hispanico? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:46, 26 Iulii 2019 (UTC)

"He has four siblings, sisters Nelly and Lady, and brothers Willington and Dayer". I don't think so, but don't worry, Nairo looks better in Latin than Willington does in Spanish. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:52, 26 Iulii 2019 (UTC)
You've read my mind. :) I suppose the Scottish surname Nairus would have been taken into Spanish unchanged, as was Willington, so it's probably not that. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:06, 26 Iulii 2019 (UTC)
Could it be related to Jairo? Nairo does sound like some of the local names they have in the Canary Islands, but I'd not be surprised if it is a werid Spanish name derived of something odd in English like "Ilovenia" (for I love NY), Usnavi or Usarmi (for US Army and US Navy).--Xaverius 13:40, 26 Iulii 2019 (UTC)

Of sets and classesRecensere

See Disputatio:Theoria copiarum about whether copia or classis is a better name for the mathematical object called "set" in English, "ensemble" in French, "Menge" in German, as opposed to the object called "class" (resp. "classe," "Klasse"). Mathematically-inclined Vicipaedians, quid censetis? A. Mahoney (disputatio) 17:10, 30 Iulii 2019 (UTC)

A set is a 'combination of elements'. Kindly consider 'coetus'( without the sexual overtones) and 'complexio'.--Jondel (disputatio) 02:12, 17 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

Of integersRecensere

Pagina "Dopaminum‎‎" ab Andrea Raether hodie incepta, si recte numeravi, est pagina 131,000 Vicipaediae. Gaudeamus! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:22, 10 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

de orthographia "Chiliae"Recensere

Why is the article "Chilia" (for Chile) named "Chilia", instead of "Cilia"? I think we should be consistent with "Cechia" here and transcribe the /tʃ/ as "c(e/i)" instead of "ch", which sounds like an aspirated K (also, for the same reason, why Pechinum instead of Pekinum/Pecinum?)

Like other Wikipedias, we depend on reliable sources. If there are good Latin sources for Cilia, Pekinum, Pecinum, by all means cite them; if we've so far overlooked a majority of good sources in any such case, please propose a move. Online reliable sources of Latin are multiplying as we speak.
Vicipaedia doesn't prescribe a pronunciation: it's a worldwide resource, and modern pronunciations of Latin vary. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:35, 12 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
Pekinum is already attested (the source is already in the article). I don’t know if Cilia is though. Slayergames44 (disputatio) 14:55, 12 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

en:Kinship fr:Parenté it:Parentela de:VerwandtschaftRecensere

As you may have noticed, I'm going through the section Familia, affinitas of the Paginae quas omnibus Wikipediis contineri oportet. One page is en:Kinship fr:Parenté it:Parentela de:Verwandtschaft, but when you look at these versions, English and French describe a broader concept, while German and Italian talk about kinship in a stricter sense (relations by blood or adoption, as opposed to affinity - "cognatio"?). Any objection to follow the German/Italian way? Sigur (disputatio) 17:31, 14 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

It's fine with me, but note that, for 'kindred' (meaning 'relatives'), Cassell's gives consanguinei, cognati, and necessarii, and for 'relation' (meaning 'a relative'), propinquus (f. propinqua), cognatus (f. cognata), and "adfinis (by marriage)." IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:37, 14 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
In this subject, I don't know if it will be useful (or too technical) but, I've added the terms I remember from my social anthropology lectures that cover the various types of kinship: Familia#Terminologia Latina. Considering that the actual titles of the kinsperson varied according to the gender of the individual in question and their relation to ego (e.g. amita, matertera, patruus, etc.) I don't know if it might be easier to use the technical terms and keep the Latin nomenclature as redirects. The list can always be reverted if it's too messy/long.--Xaverius 18:54, 14 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
(ACtually, I'm sorry I went ahead with this -- I should probably have asked here first, but it seems that this issue came up just as I was typing my list -ish!)--Xaverius 18:56, 14 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
I think a very short article for kinship with a link will do. Xaverius' list is nice enough where it is. We just shouldn't give away the points for the kinship article by not creating any. Sigur (disputatio) 19:18, 14 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
Yes, let's keep the points! For those who don't know about the 10 000-article list: we get 2 points for an article (even the smallest stipula possible), 1 more point if it exceeds 8000 characters, and yet one more point if it exceeds 16 000 characters. Each month's scores are posted here. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 19:41, 14 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
It seems weird that they want an article for grandparents but then one for uncle and another for aunt. Then, it means that we get more points for having both Amita and Patruus (with the matertera and avunculus reditrects) rather than merging them into Familia consanguinea collateralis ordinaria gradu tertio (wordy and technical as it may be, even if it accounts for all the different differentiatios the Romans themselves made)? (for a test, see Usor:Xaverius/familia)--Xaverius 19:46, 14 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
I bet it's just based on English: They have a gender-neutral word for grand-parent, but none for uncle/aunt. One might even think it's an application of the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis... Sigur (disputatio) 20:15, 14 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
Quite possibly! The whole list has a Western bias and a recent-times bias. But it can be changed! See its disputatio page. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 20:42, 14 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
That's why I thought that the technical descriptions would work better. They are specific and inclusive in the way that actaul terms are not, because they have an emic meaning that already limits the extent of the kin-relationship--Xaverius 20:53, 14 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
(Having said this, and after checking here neither uncle nor aunt are on *their* list, but amita and patruus are in ours!--Xaverius 21:07, 14 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
Oops. Is this an update problem? (And should I add a "Myrias|Anthropologia" here; it's on the Wikimedia list?) Sigur (disputatio) 21:21, 14 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
Kinship systems around the world are quite variable. Samoan, for example, has no word for 'brother (man speaking)' and no word for 'sister (woman speaking)', but it has a single word for both: uso 'same-sex sibling'. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 20:46, 14 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

Anthropologic/Psychologic egoRecensere

While writing about familia consanguinea I had to use ego to describe collateral and direct lines of kinship. In those instances I am using ego as a concept/subject and not actually as a pronoun referring to yours truly. So, my question is, in those cases do I decline that ego or not? I have just realised I've both declined it and not: "unusquisque gradus numerat spatium inter me et propinquum" and "cum quibus ego habet nexum sanguinis". Re-reading it declined, it feels wrong because of the sense it conveys, but seeing it not declined appears gramatically wrong. It will be quite confusing when the actual page on ego gets written (and I dread the day when ego, super-ego, et id gets written)!--Xaverius 07:33, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

Ego, egonis, egoni, egonem,... Just kidding, noli fingere, I know... Sigur (disputatio) 10:05, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
I was very tempted to do that... but wanted to ask first!--Xaverius 11:09, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
Yes, one way or another, we have to make it clear to the reader that the word is being used in an unfamiliar way. French psychologists use the definite article to do this (le moi, le ça). They don't decline the word (les moi). But we don't have a definite article. German psychologists offer a handier example: mostly they use Ich, they decline it as a neuter (das Ich, des Ichs, rarely das Ego, des Egos) and of course they give it an initial capital as a noun (this is according to my sources and de:wiki; I don't read much German psychoanalysis). We can surely write Ego and Id with an initial capital. But declining the words in a special way puts us within range of "noli fingere", as Sigur says, unless some reliable source has done it before us. So I think I would write "Ego" with an initial capital and decline it normally, "Ego, Me, Mei, Mihi". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:00, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
My instinct would be to lowercase it (Latin not being German) and treat it as neuter. So: Carolus rex magnum ego habebat ~ Carolo regi erat magnum ego. (A vulgar idiom, which no psychotherapist would use, but it still illustrates the point.) The title of the article might be Ego (psychologia), or just simply Ego if no homonymous article is contemplated. Likewise for the id and the superego (no hyphen, please). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:20, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
In case people don't know (and would like to): ego isn't the only available name of the thing anymore: some psychotherapists these days posit a nesting of egolike structures, all of which, for the best of mental health, want to be dissolved or integrated into a single self. Connierae Andreas (Coming to Wholeness: How to Awaken & Live with Ease, Boulder, Colorado: Real People Press, 2018, ISBN 978-0-911226-51-5) speaks of the 'I,' in single quotes (with any punctuation to the left of the closing one), pluralized as 'I's (with no spaces). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:36, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
If you want to treat it as a neuter (and I agree with that), then you can't have "me" as accusative, it should be identical to the nominative. Sigur (disputatio) 13:24, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
Fixed (though it still cries out to be declined over here). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:52, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
To me, the ego in a family tree is pretty different from the Freudian ego. The former is a fairly natural way of explaining familial connections; the latter is a specific concept in Freud's theory. My inclination is to use ego, mei, mihi... for kinship (see, e.g., Forcellini's definition of avunculus: "matris meae frater") and ego indecl. for the Freudian term (and I agree with Iacobus, the same should hold for id and superego). Lesgles (disputatio) 13:18, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
On this, es:wiki was my starting point. There there is one article for ego, which covers the many instances in which the latin term is used, including the kinship ego (which may not deserve a separate page, as it is quite a small subject to discuss) and the Freudian ego (which in literature in Spanish appears both in the original - 'el ego' - and in translation - 'el yo', 'el super-yo').--Xaverius 13:37, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
The general consensus would seem, then, to use the neuter, indecl. ego for the Freudian concept, which seems fine. For the anthropologic/kinship use of the term we seem to favour the declinable form, treating it as a normal pronoun. Although in both cases it will always be useful to link it to an ego article. --Xaverius 13:43, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
FYI: copyeditors usually delete general before consensus, there usually being no need to distinguish between that and some special consensus. :) IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:52, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
Ah... I myself am one for redundant pleonasms!--Xaverius 13:58, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
No one has used this psychoanalytic "ego" as an indeclinable neuter in Latin before, so far as we know. Readers often correct our grammar, and there would surely be attempts to correct anything resembling Iacobus's two (simple and good) examples. Yes, as Xaverius says, ego should be linked, but I feel it should also be marked in some way. I suggested an initial capital, but another possibility is to italicize it, because we've borrowed it back from English and we're treating it as a different word from the ordinary Latin "ego". [Addendum:] Iacobus reminds me that quotes, as with the English 'I', are a third possibility. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:34, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
Nobody has an idea of a nice short Latin word that could mean "aspect of the human mind" at least in context? If so, we could put that before the indeclinable ego, id and superego. And BTW, I vote for capitalising. Sigur (disputatio) 17:33, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
If you want to go that route, mens itself might do: mens ego, mens id, mens superego. That would have the advantage of providing a declinable noun to help with the grammar of the indeclinable word. Its structure would be similar to that of the "monkey mind" and related concepts, well-known in East Asia and beyond. Come to think of it, what would the Latin be for that? mens simia? It might already be attested in Latin translations of Buddhist writings! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:40, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
Asked and answered, though the answer is unexpected: Mens Simia Software! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:48, 16 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

Could we define first what is ego in English? For me it is the sense of self(sensus ipsius). I 'd like to advice avoiding the word 'ego' in that sense in a latin article to avoid confusion with its latin sense.--Jondel (disputatio) 02:32, 17 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

Surrogacy, anyone?Recensere

Another page on the 10 000-article list is en:Surrogacy. The obvious thing seems to me "Graviditas surrogata", but that is unattested as far as Google goes. I have already written "mater surrogata" in the article Parens, and that comes up here and there (probably because someone has added it to the English Wiktionary as a Latin translation in 2005). Does anyone have a better idea or know some source for an attested version? Sigur (disputatio) 19:24, 17 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

As long as the individual elements are attested, I don't see why their compound couldn't suffice, at least as a placeholder until something better is found. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 19:19, 18 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
Morgan's dictionary, citing Helfer's, gives "surrogate mother, mater conducticia". But yes, "graviditas surrogata" (or subrogata) would also be possible as a "convertimus". Lesgles (disputatio) 22:05, 18 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Iacobus and Lesgles. Morgan's word "conducticia" is a reasonable suggestion but it implies employment or payment. I guess surrogacy may often involve payment, but not by definition. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:51, 19 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I think it's better to avoid that. Lesgles (disputatio) 13:59, 19 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

And another one: stepfamilyRecensere

With higher mortality in ancient times, I assume that stepfamilies were widespread in Rome. So, there might be a nice Latin word for it out there. Alas, I haven't found one. In case nobody else does either, my suggestion is Familia recomposita as straightforward translation of fr:Famille recomposée. Sigur (disputatio) 18:04, 18 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

Couldn't think of anything at first. However, "privignus" exists as an adjective in the required sense, and "privignus -a" as nouns can be used of step-relationships generally. So "familia privigna" is my suggestion. There's nothing POV about it: Roman society was at ease with re-marrying, and this adjective is used by the farming author Columella about the transplanting of seedlings, which is a good and desirable thing! "Familia recomposita" is OK, but interpreting it would rely on knowledge of modern social work jargon, which not all our readers would have. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:33, 20 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
Thanks a lot. Reading this, I'm wondering whether "stepbrother" wouldn't be "frater privignus", but the only attestation I've found (page 63 apud Google Books) concerns Heraclonas and Constantinus III who appear to be half-brothers. What do you think? Sigur (disputatio) 19:19, 21 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
"Privignus" has as underlying sense implication from different genes, so I think it might equally cover the half-sibling and any other step-sibling relationship. If so, it overlaps with another term: the half-brother relationship can be precisely specified in Latin by saying "frater ex alia matre/ex alio patre". Your source could equally have used those terms for the relationship between Heraclonas and Constantine III, but was not incorrect in applying "privignus" instead. That's how I see it ... but, to be honest, I'm straying beyond my knowledge here. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:10, 21 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

Trias excogitatas adhibuntur ut de quo mens operare describant.Recensere

Is this correct? Legible?--Jondel (disputatio) 09:26, 19 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:34, 19 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
Brevius melius est. "... notiones a Sigismundo Freud ad modum operandi mentis humanae describendum creatae", vel simpliciter "... notiones a Sigismundo Freud ad mentem humanam describendam creatae". Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 12:20, 19 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

Gratias vobis ago Andrew et Demetrio! Varientem tuam Demetrio utor.--Jondel (disputatio) 10:19, 22 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

Terra Foederalis GermaniaeRecensere

Quomodo haec formula mutatur? Errores enim continet: Postquam in Bavaria anno 2000 senatus abrogatus est, nulla terra Germaniae foederalis senatum habet, sed omni terrae unum parlamentum nomine Landtag est. - Genitivus pluralis vocis factionis non factionium, sed factionum est. --Bavarese (disputatio) 15:53, 19 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

Formulam cum vocabulis senatus et factio non video. Ubi est? Sigur (disputatio) 16:41, 19 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
Hic mutari potest. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 17:42, 19 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
"Praesidens parlamenti terrae" ac "Legati factionum parlamenti terrae". Parlamenti non solus sunt "Landtage" sed etiam "Bürgerschaft" ("civitas"! Hamburgi, Bremae) et "Abgeordnetenhaus" (Berolini). ("Senatus" quoque exstant: rectiones Hamburgi, Bremae et Berolini). Sigur (disputatio) 19:05, 19 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
De veris terris, non de urbibus per constitutionem "terris" dictis et in quibus res urbis a rebus rei publicae non sunt distinctae, scribere volueram.--Bavarese (disputatio) 09:24, 21 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

Haeretici incensi?Recensere

Satius puto paginam his verbis non fieri. Nam vox incendere significat initium ardendi et flagrandi facere. Poena autem, de qua agitur, in comburendo et concremando consistit.--Bavarese (disputatio) 15:17, 19 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

Tibi consentio. Insuper non nobis licet incaute tales homines "haereticos" nuncupare! Possumus fortasse "religionis causa combusti" dicere. Sed ubi est pagina, mi Bavarese?
A, intellego. Hae verba in pagina Haeresis vidisti sub rubrica "Nexus interni"!
Rubricae "nexuum internarum" deprecantur. Nexus caerulei sub tali rubrica, si re vera utiles sunt, certe parcere licet, sed si sub hac rubrica nexus rubros reperis, oportet statim delere. Omnino inutiles sunt et saepe mala Latinitate conscribuntur.
Insuper nobis haud licet paginam disputationis creare, nulla pagina substantiva exsistente. Ergo hanc disputationem a te inceptam ad Tabernam moveo: OK? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:11, 19 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
Rebus sic stantibus delenda equidem puto, quae ad hanc paginam nondum creatam scripsi.--Bavarese (disputatio) 21:39, 19 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

Request at meta needing local admin assistanceRecensere

m:special:diff/19325204 is a request from a user saying that they have been caught in a local IP block, so guessing a hard block. Would an admin please pop over to m:Meta:Requests for help from a sysop or bureaucrat and respond. Thanks. Billinghurst (disputatio) 22:11, 25 Augusti 2019 (UTC)

OK, I have responded. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:43, 26 Augusti 2019 (UTC)
👍 Billinghurst (disputatio) 10:32, 26 Augusti 2019 (UTC)


This formula (used on about 20 pages concerning fossil footprints) is not working and also causes other formulae used on the same page not to work: see for example Huanglongpus. I don't know how long this has been the case. I thought it might be because I have been experimenting with Formula:Taxobox today, but that doesn't seem to be the answer. Can anyone see why it is?

Formula:Ichnobox and Formula:Automatic taxobox (used on about 13 pages, and still working correctly) are extremely labour-intensive and server-intensive, so I was thinking of eliminating them both. Therefore I'm not asking anyone to put a lot of work into this question, but it is curious. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:16, 4 Octobris 2019 (UTC)

I support getting rid of both Formula:Ichnobox and Formula:Automatic taxobox. As you state, these two templates are used on a small number of pages only and cause a lot of problems. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 21:22, 4 Octobris 2019 (UTC)

Formula:Fossil rangeRecensere

S.t.p., si tibi interest, vide "Disputatio Formulae:Fossil range" et responsum adde! Gratias ago. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:30, 4 Octobris 2019 (UTC)


I think the new style is OK, but the namer of a taxon should print on a new line. For example, at the moment, we have

Familia : Canidae G. Fischer de Waldheim,

But the layout would look better if it more closely resembled that seen in the French & Spanish taxoboxes:

Familia : Canidae
G. Fischer de Waldheim, 1817

The German wiki even gives the original namer a section all his or her own! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:07, 5 Octobris 2019 (UTC)

In the majority of cases the line containing name, author and date doesn't break, but in a minority, as in the example you give, the author's name or the taxon name is especially long and the line does break. I was looking initially at the majority.
The two solutions that I can see would have to apply every time: (a) to make the whole template wider, or, as you suggest, (b) to make it longer by inserting a hard break every time between taxon and authority. Either is very easy to do. Any other opinions? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:44, 10 Octobris 2019 (UTC)
The solution you suggested is preferable, I think, so I have effected it. (If my last edit causes unexpected errors we can revert it and think again, no harm done.) Please keep on looking for problems -- thank you! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:38, 11 Octobris 2019 (UTC)

Translation of a plate on Gergovia monumentRecensere

Writing the French WP article of the Gergovia Monument, I need some help to translate one of the two latin graved plates of the Gergovia Monument erected in 1900 on Gergovia plateau to commemorate the victory of Vercingetorix on Caesar.


Some informations  :

My current and very partial translation :

"At the glory of Vercingetorix victory ... ??? ... led by Académie S.L.A of Clermont ...  ??? .... ???? .... 1900"

Thanks. TCY (disputatio) 11:54, 22 Octobris 2019 (UTC)


deux petits lapsus dans la transcription ː sur la pierre est écrit AD Gloriam (destiné à la gloire, pour glorifier) et à la fin il faut lire ARVERNORUM. La lecture FRE me semble douteuse (la pierre semble abîmée) ː personnellement j'aimerais lire EX AERE (sur des fonds privés) mais je laisse le soin à d'autres de résoudre le problème. De même E VMPTV ne veut rien dire, peut-être le graveur a-t-il oublié un S (E SVMPTV > aux frais d'un citoyen de Riom). APOGONI est un mot plus grec que latin et doit signifier "descendants des Arvernes". C'est du moins ainsi que je vois les choses.

Marcus Terentius Bibliophilus (disputatio) 12:17, 22 Octobris 2019 (UTC)

Je suis 100% d'accord avec Marcus! Je traduirais alors: "Ce monument à la gloire du vainqueur Vercingetorix a été érigé par les descendants des Arvernes, grâce à un fonds privé promu par l'Académie de sciences, lettres et arts de Clermont-Ferrand, et à la générosité d'un citoyen de Riom, 1900". Si j'ai bien compris le latin c'est le fonds (ou appel de fonds) qui a été promu par l'Académie; le don du citoyen de Riom est mis à part. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:45, 22 Octobris 2019 (UTC)
Profecto ERE est lapsus legendi pro ÆRE, litteris in lapidem re vera incisis, sed nunc contritis; litteras autem VMPTV scalptor ipse ut videtur incidit, litteram S neglegens; quam ob causam verbum Francice conversurum fortasse melius scribetur [g]énérosité, non générosité. Menda historica conservanda sunt! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:02, 22 Octobris 2019 (UTC)
Et quia locutio E VMPTV Latinitate bona fieri non potest (ante vocalem, EX, non E, requiritur), scimus mendum fuisse scalptoris, neque academiae, neque vero progeniumque Arvernorum honoratorum! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:09, 22 Octobris 2019 (UTC)
Un grand merci pour votre aide/ thanks for your help.
Marcus Terentius Bibliophilus et Andrew Dalby, effectivement l'Académie de Clermont a levé des fonds privés, depuis les années 1860, pour la création de ce monument. Et le docteur Girard, ancien maire et député de Riom, mentionné sur la troisième plaque, celles des personnalités, a financé généreusement ce monument donc il peut être le citoyen de Riom mentionné. Et je n'avais pas fait attention, mais effectivement ce qui semble être du béton coulé a été abimé à un endroit et semble avoir été refait et regravé (sans doute par un non latiniste :), des caractères ont alors pu sauter. Donc l'ensemble est cohérent. Merci encore.
IacobusAmor, my latin language understanting is limited. Not sure to have all understood your response. TCY (disputatio) 14:14, 22 Octobris 2019 (UTC)
"Certainly ERE is a reading mistake for ÆRE, the letters actually cut into the stone, but now worn away; however, the engraver himself apparently incised the letters VMPTV omitting the letter S; for which reason the word to be converted into French is perhaps better written [g]énérosité, not générosité. Historical errors ought to be preserved! ¶ Since the phrase E VMPTV is impossible in good Latin (before a vowel, EX, not E, is required), we know that the error was the engraver's, not that of the academy, and indeed not that of the descendants of the honored Arverni." IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:25, 22 Octobris 2019 (UTC)
I'd add (for epigraphy's sake) that the transcription should be rendered: Hoc monumentum ad gloriam/ Vercingetorigis victoris/ ex (a)[e]re privato Academ(iae) S(cientiarum), L(itterarum), A(rtiumque)/ Claramont(ensis?) p[r]omovente/ et e <s>umptu cuiusdam civis/ Riomensis erexerunt/ Arvernorum apogoni/ MCM.--Xaverius 14:31, 22 Octobris 2019 (UTC)
UNLESS Academia goes with promovente and not with civis. Then it'd be Hoc monumentum ad gloriam/ Vercingetorigis victoris/ ex (a)[e]re privato Academ(ia) S(cientiarum), L(itterarum), A(rtiumque)/ Claramont(ense?) p[r]omovente/ et e <s>umptu cuiusdam civis/ Riomensis erexerunt/ Arvernorum apogoni/ MCM --Xaverius 14:35, 22 Octobris 2019 (UTC)
You're right the second time, surely: "Academia ... promovente" (ablative absolute), not "Academiae". Possibly "Claramontana". I think that with only a little imagination we can still read ÆRE in the photograph.
As for Iacobus's suggested "[g]énérosité,", let's say that translators would disagree on whether such an error can be translated :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:46, 22 Octobris 2019 (UTC)
Thanks Xaverius and IacobusAmor. Correct latin text included in footnotes of the article. TCY (disputatio) 20:57, 23 Octobris 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia Asian Month 2019Recensere

Please help translate to your language

Wikipedia Asian Month is back! We wish you all the best of luck for the contest. The basic guidelines of the contest can be found on your local page of Wikipedia Asian Month. For more information, refer to our Meta page for organizers.

Looking forward to meet the next ambassadors for Wikipedia Asian Month 2019!

For additional support for organizing offline event, contact our international team on wiki or on email. We would appreciate the translation of this message in the local language by volunteer translators. Thank you!

Wikipedia Asian Month International Team.

MediaWiki message delivery (disputatio) 16:57, 31 Octobris 2019 (UTC)

Vicipaedia Simplex? Could we make a version of Vicipaedia aimed at less advanced users?Recensere

Quaeso, Possumusne condere novam Vicipaediam simpliciorem tironibus? Vidi "Wikipedia Simple English" et placuit. Potest fieri?

I teach at a middle school in Arlington MA and one of my primary frustrations is that my novice students have nowhere that I can send them to do any form of research in Latin that they can read. This site is undoubtedly the best option, but is not really geared towards novices. I found the "Simple English" Wikipedia and that looks like exactly what I am thinking of. I could start a wiki on one of the free wiki platforms, but Vicipaedia's established platform and norms was really appealing. I am envisioning a place where both advanced and novice learners can write more simple entries. I loved the way the simple English Wikipedia made some pretty clear guidelines on how to do this:

I have no idea how to set this up beyond asking here. If set up though, I am willing to recruit writers and do some of the writing myself. I have a very good grasp of what novices can handle having taught now for 16 years at that level. Thank you for your consideration!

Abbi Holt "Fausta Silva"

Habemus nostram Portam eruditionis, si ea tibi placeat?--Xaverius 11:21, 2 Novembris 2019 (UTC)
The "Porta eruditionis" and its Scriptorium are unused and inactive right now. They could be brought to life by someone with enthusiasm, o Fausta Silva. Maybe that someone is you.
The original purpose of the Scriptorium was to house articles written by novices that would eventually be corrected and improved by other editors. This never worked, if my memory is accurate, because there were few or no editors who wanted to take on the task. That isn't just a fault of Vicipaedia: "Draft Space" in the English wikipedia is a black hole for the same reason, yet the English Wikipedia has over 1000 times as many editors as we have.
We currently have enough active editors to keep one whole Wikipedia going, but not two (we had 48 active editors last month: Simple English Wikipedia had 355; English Wikipedia had 66,000). So, following Xaverius' suggestion, I urge boldly going to the "Porta eruditionis", boldly re-purposing the "Scriptorium", and boldly using it. If it becomes active, we can make all necessary links between articles there and articles in mainspace. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:38, 2 Novembris 2019 (UTC)
The easiest short texts to write are probably biographies, at least to the extent of giving birth & death data and a one-phrase definition; with appropriate supporting material (photo, internal link, external source, category), such texts can be acceptable as articles, albeit too brief for sustained comfort. In such definitions, you probably won't find an appreciable difference between simple Latin and "regular" Latin. For example:

Tupac Amaru Shakur (natus Brooklynii Urbis Novi Eboraci die 16 Iunii 1971; necatus Campis in urbe Nivatae die 13 Septembris 1996), magis notus ut 2Pac et Tupac et Makaveli, fuit rapianus Americanus. Vendidit plus quam 75 000 000 discorum.

Hard to express that information more simply! (It could be made more complex by inserting a qui to the left of vendidit. "Magis notus ut" is a curious phrase left over from the early days of Vicipaedia.)
¶ Hundreds of hiphop artists and other figures popular among teenagers are awaiting such recognition here! Why, we don't even have Run-DMC, old-school though they may be! We don't even have such an attractive figure as LL Cool J, notable for being a Grammy-winning rapper, a film & TV actor, an author (four books!), and a businessman. We do have Eminem, Kanye West, Sir Mix-a-Lot, Phife Dawg, Snoop Dogg, 2Pac, Kendrick Lamar, PSY, et Sean T. You'll find others at Categoria:Rapiani. Incidentally, rap is recitatio rapiana and musica rappistica.
¶ Placenames are another generally easy topic. For example, the first paragraph of your own town should be fairly uncomplicated to put together (maybe an entertaining classroom project?):

'''Arlington''' is a [[New England town|town]] in [[Middlesex County, Massachusetts|Middlesex County]], [[Massachusetts]], six miles (10 km) northwest of [[Boston, Massachusetts|Boston]]. The population was 42,844 at the 2010 census.

(Note that Vicipaedia uses ISO's thinspace instead of a comma in such numbers, giving you 42 844.) Vicipaedia already has some pertinent links for you: oppidum Novae Angliae, Massachusetta, Bostonia, and Census Civitatum Foederatarum 2010. Arlington is probably Arlingtonia, and your town seal (the sigillum kind, not the Phocidae kind!) might have dispositive proof. Enjoy! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:23, 2 Novembris 2019 (UTC)
¶ Abstract concepts, like "brightness," "federalism," "Gaussian elimination," "landscape architecture," "Mercator projection," "prophecy," and "scorched earth [policy]," are much harder, though sometimes an extremely short definition can easily be managed. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 20:06, 2 Novembris 2019 (UTC)
¶ Another angle: some of us rate, from –1 (best) to –7 (worst), the Latinity of certain articles we encounter, and your students may benefit from finding & correcting the errors in the worst of them. Those would be the ones marked –5, which you'll find here. (Those marked –6 and –7 get deleted unless someone fixes them quickly). The errors will be of form, vocabulary, syntax, and sometimes even fact. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:23, 2 Novembris 2019 (UTC)
¶ Also, {{In progressu}} and {{Succurre}} can be useful tools. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:23, 2 Novembris 2019 (UTC)
Fausta Silva, tibi salutem.
Gratias ut lubenter scripta fueras. Supra Andrew aliquas considerationes faciente, eas ad te non rescribam. Sane etiam ego, ut iam Xaverius, Andrew et Iacobus mentionem egerunt, tibi rogo exhortata sis ut discipulos tuos ad paginas Vicipaediae perveniant. Vale.
Andreas Raether (disputatio) 22:58, 2 Novembris 2019 (UTC)
Salvete omnes! Adiumentum tironibus afferendum esse,- quis hoc consilium repudiat? Quinam sunt, qui vicipaediam nostram continuent, nisi ei, qui hodie linguam Latinam discunt. Hi ergo nobis adiuvandi sunt, his auxilium offerendum est, his subveniendum. Sed novam Vicipaediam simpliciorem tironibus condi equidem non probo. Numerus enim diutus hic scribentium non est tantus, ut tali proposito sufficiat. Sed facillime factu esse mi videtur, ut paginas singulas signo certo notemus aptas tironibus et tironiunculis, sicut latinitatem censere soliti sumus. Notae quoque huius criterii describi possunt. Hae paginae si in categoriam propriam latinitatis conductae erunt, haud difficilius reperientur quam paginae bonae, dubiae, cuiusvis latinitatis. Vos quid censetis, o sodales? -Bavarese (disputatio) 12:48, 3 Novembris 2019 (UTC)
Adhuc portam eruditionis, mea sententia, aliquid "tecta" esse. Ergo referentiam novam in griseam columnam sinistram posita iri proponam, verbi gratia inter Auxilia et Donationes, pariter scriptorium. Vel: nova superscriptio intra columnam griseam Adiumenta (etiam Aditus Linguae Latinae, ...) nominata cum Auxilium, Porta eruditionis, ac Scriptorium.
Andreas Raether (disputatio) 09:30, 13 Novembris 2019 (UTC)

Vladimirus Nabokov: de categoriis "auctorum" et "scriptorum"Recensere

Categories (unless hidden) are for users. Wikipedia is about what is notable, and "notability" when it comes to categories will be answered by the question "Is this event/activity shown to be notable in the text?" Now then, "Auctores" and "Interpretes" categories are arranged by language, "scriptores", "scriptores mythistoriarum" and "poetae" categories by country.

He wrote significantly, prose and poetry, in Russian and English and translated between these languages and out of French. That's seven categories. (I have just taken out the "Auctores Theodisci" category which is not currently justified in the text.)

He worked significantly in Germany, France, the United States and Switzerland. That's four "Scriptores" categories (I have just added the "Scriptores Franciae" category.) He wrote novels (most notably), also poetry and other stuff. So, in this case of novelists and poets who also wrote other stuff (there are many such writers), are we to add them to the "Scriptores mythistoriarum" and "Poetae" categories as well as the general "Scriptores" categories? If we do that in Nabokov's case, that's another eight categories.

A multilingual author like Nabokov, who lived and wrote in several countries, is a good test for these policies. Nineteen categories for his writing career -- not to mention other notable aspects of his life/death -- would be far too many in almost every other case, but is it acceptable in the Nabokov case? If not, what guidelines would help us to reduce the number? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:01, 23 Novembris 2019 (UTC)

Let a thousand flowers bloom! Polymaths are always going to generate categories many & various. Why did you take out "Poetae Russiae" and "Scriptores Russiae" and such, since he published there (in Russian)? Also, it needs to be mentioned and categorized that he wasn't just a lusor scaccorum, but a composer of chess problems. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:38, 23 Novembris 2019 (UTC)
Because he wasn't living there. For "Scriptores" and "Poetae", it depends where you're living and working. For "Auctores", it depends what language you're writing in. See explanation above :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:47, 23 Novembris 2019 (UTC)
His bibliography in Wikipedia credits him with (apparently) Russian-language poems published (?) in Russia in 1916, before the family emigrated. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:02, 23 Novembris 2019 (UTC)
Well, you could try finding a reliable source for the publication and notability of those poems, adding and footnoting the facts in our article, and then reinserting the category. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:28, 23 Novembris 2019 (UTC)
Hoc feci, facile est. Poeta iam Petropoli fuerat, scriptor Berolini factus est. Nescio, utrum etiam categoriae Helveticae includendae sint an Germanicae et Francogallicae excludendae (praeter interpretes Francogallici). Thomae Mann, e.g., Helvetia, Cechoslovacia et Civitates Foederatae addi possunt, nam in his terris vivebat, Cechoslovaciae etiam civis erat. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 21:42, 23 Novembris 2019 (UTC)

Ergo nihil in regulis nostris mutari necesse est. Illa re argute per imaginem confirmata, categoria "Poetae Russiae" rite restituitur. Gratias ago ambobus! An recte consensum interpretavi? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:11, 14 Decembris 2019 (UTC)

Recte; de maiore parte auctoribus Latinis categoriae aliter definiri non possunt, nisi "auctor Latinus" et "scriptor Italiae/Germaniae" etc. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 16:33, 14 Decembris 2019 (UTC)

Extension of Wikipedia Asian Month contestRecensere

In consideration of a week-long internet block in Iran, Wikipedia Asian Month 2019 contest has been extended for a week past November. The articles submitted till 7th December 2019, 23:59 UTC will be accepted by the fountain tools of the participating wikis.

Please help us translate and spread this message in your local language.

Wikipedia Asian Month International Team

--MediaWiki message delivery (disputatio) 14:16, 27 Novembris 2019 (UTC)

Paginae mobilis logotypumRecensere

Salve, in paginae mobilis logotypo "Wikipedia" neque "Vicipaedia" scribitur. Aliquis fortasse corrigere potest? Gratias ago. --Ciao57 (disputatio) 20:44, 12 Decembris 2019 (UTC)

Rogavi hic: phabricator:T240728. --UV (disputatio) 22:27, 13 Decembris 2019 (UTC)
Has finally been changed, see . Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 21:51, 4 Februarii 2020 (UTC)

EPPO/Parquet européen/Europäische StaatsanwaltschaftRecensere

There doesn't really seem to be anything immediately clear and unambiguous, but does anyone have a better idea than Cognitura publica Europaea? And is the head of the agency a cognitrix publica Europaea then? I was rather thinking of procuratrix (because of French/Dutch procureur(e)), but it seems to me that procuratio or procuratura doesn't really work (but if I'm wrong on this, I will be happy to use that root). Sigur (disputatio) 13:54, 20 Decembris 2019 (UTC)

"European Public Prosecutor's Office"? Ministerium Accusatoris Publici Europaei? For 'prosecutor', both Cassell's & Traupman have accusator, and Traupman adds accusatrix. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:35, 20 Decembris 2019 (UTC)
"Ministerium" could come in handy (at least if we haven't anything shorter), because there is the expression "ministère public" in French (and corresponding ones in some other languages). But I'd like to hear more opinions on "accusator". I see it's attested as meaning "prosecutor", but I can't help hearing "denunciator"... Sigur (disputatio) 20:15, 20 Decembris 2019 (UTC)
Over here (west of the Atlantic), the legal senses of denuntiare in Cassell's ('summon a person as witness' and 'give notice of an action') might make a denuntiator more like a marshal, the officer who delivers a subpoena, than a prosecutor, the officer who signs & thereby issues it. L&S define denuntiator as 'a police officer, police inspector'. Also: Cassell's distinguishes between apparently correlative terms: accusator ('strictly only in regard to state offences') and petitor ('a plaintiff in a private suit'). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 20:46, 20 Decembris 2019 (UTC)
Oh dear. That must have been my English (although I did check whether it could mean what I meant...). Put more plainly, "accusator" makes me think of the private person going to see the police to tell them that someone else has committed a crime (i.e. "accusing" them of that crime). Now, my feeling may be wrong, and then that's fine. I'm just not sure that "accusator" is the best solution, at this point. Sigur (disputatio) 21:33, 20 Decembris 2019 (UTC)
An informer (who accuses someone of a crime) could be a delator. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 00:05, 21 Decembris 2019 (UTC)

I have also checked the CIC, but they only have the "promotor iustitiae" who seems to have a much broader competence than just under penal law. And when they finally say that the promotor iustitiae sometimes acts as prosecutor (can. 1721 CIC), they only use "actor". I don't think we can find inspiration there. Sigur (disputatio) 22:01, 20 Decembris 2019 (UTC)

As nobody else seems to be bugged by "accusator" I tried to think about how that would play out concretely. One thing is that the current chief prosecutor is a woman, so I guess it would be generic masculine most of the time and "accusatrix" when talking about her. Not a problem as such, but then it struck me that she isn't the "European Prosecutor", she is the "European Chief Prosecutor" and there is a whole bunch of European prosecutors. Therefore the English name "European Public Prosecutor's Office" (on which Iacobus's suggestion is clearly based) is simply wrong! I checked all the languages on IATE and it turned out that only Czech, Irish, Croatian and Maltese follow the English pattern, the other 19 have something of the same kind as French "Parquet européen". Another point is that the "accusatio" is only a small part of the agency's work. The main part is to build a case, gather evidence, obtain the necessary warrants (things that are often done by the police in common law jurisdictions, but not in the (continental-style) European system). Therefore, I still kind of like my "cognitura". I've found an example here and the agency's work seems to fit with this. Latinophilus has "cognitor civitatis" as well.

Here the different names in several languages:

  • European Chief Prosecutor - chef du Parquet européen - Europäischer Generalstaatsanwalt - procuratore capo europeo - Fiscal General Europeo - Europese hoofdaanklager
Maximus Accusator Europaeus? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 17:45, 22 Decembris 2019 (UTC)
I was rather going for "generalis" here, as there is "general" in several languages; but that's a secondary issue. Sigur (disputatio) 18:14, 22 Decembris 2019 (UTC)
Then your English (!) probably wants to be European Prosecutor General (see attorney general). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:58, 22 Decembris 2019 (UTC)
That's the idea (based on German, Spanish and Portuguese), but okay, in English the regulation says "European Chief Prosecutor". Sigur (disputatio) 19:09, 22 Decembris 2019 (UTC)
  • Deputy European Chief Prosecutors - adjoints au chef du Parquet européen - Stellvertreter des Europäischen Generalstaatsanwalt - sostituti del procuratore capo europeo - fiscales adjuntos al Fiscal General Europeo - plaatsvervangend Europese hoofdaanklagers
  • European Prosecutors - procureurs européens - Europäische Staatsanwälte - procuratori europei - Fiscales Europeos - Europese aanklagers
  • European Delegated Prosecutors - procureurs européens délégués - Delegierte Europäische Staatsanwälte - procuratori europei delegati - Fiscales Europeos Delegados - gedelegeerd Europese aanklagers
  • European Public Prosecutor’s Office - Parquet européen- Europäische Staatsanwaltschaft- Procura europea - Fiscalía Europea - Europees Openbaar Ministerie
- Sigur (disputatio) 17:28, 22 Decembris 2019 (UTC)
As only Iacobus and me seem to be inspired by this without one fully convicing the other, and as my article has been ready for some time, I've stuck to my initial idea for the time being. If anyone (including Iacobus, of course) thinks this is wrong to the point of having to be moved, okay... Sigur (disputatio) 23:04, 22 Decembris 2019 (UTC)
"Cognitura publica" could work, I think. When English translations of "cognitura" use the word office they are taking the word in the sense of a job or duty assumed, not a bureau; however, the job concerned is that of taking a legal case on someone's behalf. (A member of the Vitellius family was said to have made money through "cognituris", which seems to mean "by taking on prosecutions for others". Suetonius, Vitellius 2.1.) Thus adding to "cognitura" the word "publica" suggests "on behalf of the state", which would be exactly right. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:32, 23 Decembris 2019 (UTC)
For reference: the definition of cognitura in L&S is: "the office of a fiscal agent, who looks up the debtors to the treasury; a state's attorneyship, a state agency." That might imply that publica is unnecessary, and that the main duty of this prosecutor is to find people & corporations that are cheating on their taxes & fees. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:14, 23 Decembris 2019 (UTC)

Ministerium Europaeum a rebus exterisRecensere

For that matter, how did Ministerium Europaeum a rebus exteris get pressed into service as a translation of "European External Action Service"? Where's the action? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:21, 23 Decembris 2019 (UTC)

Il don't know and by the way I feel a bit uneasy about "ministerium", because one of the differences between the aborted Constitutional Treaty and the Lisbon Treaty is that the minster of foreign affairs isn't called "minister" anymore. What I do know is that the word "action" isn't present in all official language versions in the first place; so we can at least consider it optional. Sigur (disputatio) 15:05, 23 Decembris 2019 (UTC)
They talk, sometimes to very good effect. They don't really act. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:40, 23 Decembris 2019 (UTC)