Usor:Ioscius/Tabularium disputationum 2


Dear Ioscius/Tabularium disputationum 2,

after reading your dialogue about adminship I decided to take it seriously: I see the three of you have different abilities, but the perfect admin doesn't still exist: only collaboration between admins works, so look here and consider what I just wrote. If you don't like it rest assured that there's no bad intention. - εΔω 15:11, 12 Maii 2006 (UTC)


Your edit on Perl is a good start. :-) Apart from the special philosophy and the special people behind this language ... it has been especially designed for dealing with text. You do not need to really learn it, to get advantages from it. There is a lot of useful stuff which can be just taken. However, the more you know, the more of this stuff you can use. It is like driving a car: You don't need to be a mechanician to drive a car, but it helps, if you know what for this big wheel and those 2 or 3 pedals near your legs are. It were even good to know how to start the thing and how to use the handbrake. If you want to drive in the night, you should ask someone where to find the light switches. Of course you can even get advantages from a car, if you know nothing about driving. For example, if you want to have a shelter when you are overtaken by a heavy rain shower. Then it would be useful if you knew how to get into the car. :-)

The same with Perl. Principially it's just a language, a computer language. You can let a computer make things for you. The challenge is to express your wishes by using the language. Means: By using the provided words (commands) and by following the grammar, e. g. the syntax. Isn't this similar to natural languages?

(I've forgotten the "context", which seems to be unique for natural languages. Perl has it. Larry Wall: The essence of Perl is really context sensitivity, not just to syntactic context, but also to semantic, pragmatic, and cultural context. [1] Cultural context?! Details on request ...)

Perl is different in some ways:

  • There is more than one way to do it. - Like natural languages can be classified (e. g. en:Synthetic language/en:Analytic language/...), there are also several programming styles: en:Programming paradigm. Most programming languages are following a specific ideology/style. The ideology of Perl is: Take the best from all. As a consequence it is rather easy for any programmer to write a perl program since he can use the style he is used to, however, it can be sometimes hard to read a Perl program if it has been written by a person who is used to a completely other style and very experienced. This Perl code will look strange to you.
  • Makes easy things easy and complicated ones possible.
  • etc.

Perl is famous for it's en:Regular expressions. You can see REs as a special language, designed for describing word structures. Examples:

  • /ang/ means "a text containing the string 'ang'": language, anger, 36rttr8ang663teg, e4$=ang5%%, Wang, ...
  • /ang/i means "a text containing the string 'ang' no matter what case": Anglia, WAng, language, anger, ...
  • /^ang/ means "a text starting with 'ang'": anger, ...
  • /^ang/i means "a text starting with 'ang' no matter what case": anger, Anger, Anglia, ...
  • / means "a text, containing 'w', then any character, then 'ng'": wang, wing, w5ng, lawonga, ...
  • /Amen\./ means "a text containg 'Amen', followed by a dot": Amen., tAmen.omentum, xxAmen.oxi, Amen.44, ...

These are just very basic examples, it can get really complicated. Let's say "powerful" instead of "complicated". ;-)

So, if you are interested in anlyzing text, Perl is a mighty tool.

Let me give some examples what lists we could produce:

  • Articles containing the "word" vulgo. What is a word? A word is text, delimited by word boundaries. What are word boundaries? Typically a word consists of letters like "a" to "z". Ups, sort of chauvinism, there are languages with other alphabets. You can tell Perl, what you mean by "letter", you can even tell it, what letters are in languages which do not have the Latin (ok, in fact it's the English ...) alphabet. Perl can understand en:Unicode. It was one of the first computer languages which were able to handle unicode. If we take what Perl understands as a word boundary, we can simply use the special sequence "\b". Mostly this works fine for languages like Latin. It does not work with umlauts, without giving Perl some hints. To be honestly: In most cases you have to provide an explicit list of letters because of the special characters. (... easy things easy and complicated ones possible.). Example: /[^v]vulgo[^o]/ means "a character other than 'v', then 'vulgo', then a character other than 'o'". /[^bzrsa]/ means "a character other than 'b' or 'z' or 'r' or ... /[^\^]/ means "a character other than "^". You have to "escape" (= mark) the "^" with "\". Detail: /[^v]vulgo[^o]/ will not match a text starting with "vulgo". It has to start with any letter but "v". It needs just some extra characters to make this work, but I will stop here.
  • A list of articles containig images which are formatted with a width bigger than 250 pixels.
  • A list of articles containing "Batavia" but not "Hollandia".
  • A list of articles which provide a link to "http://vi". (without the space)
  • A list of words starting with "Batav", sorted by the title of the article where I found them.
  • A statistic about the usage of the strings "==Vide etiam==", "==Vide Etiam==", "==vide etiam==", ...
  • A statistic about the usage of strings which consist of "I", "V", "X", "L", "C", "D" and "M". ;-) We could look for such strings delimited by the string "[[" and "]]" or "(" and ")" or "([[" and "]])" or whatever we want.
  • etc.

The main task is to exactly define what sort of strings we want to select. Someone does not need to have any basic knowledge of e. g. regular expressions to take part in the discussion, however, it will help. ;-) If a cardriver asks you for the way, it would help, if you knew that cars are not ships or aeroplanes. Cars have to go on streets. Ok, there are off-road-cars ... Perl is sort of an off-road-programming language but it has its limits.

--Roland2 09:12, 13 Maii 2006 (UTC)

2 questions, Perl and CFARecensere

Ad 1)

Sorry, I fear I have reverted your edits and "corrected" the categories. I will correct the correction and change Categoria:Civitatum Americae Unitarum Praesidentes to Categoria:Praesidentes Civitatum Foederatarum Americae.

As far as I know, redirection works with category pages as well, but not with the extra features which categories provide. So you have to edit every page which contains a category. As far as I know ...

Aside from that it seems that the software is checking a page for the string #REDIRECT and a link. Leading blanks and trailing text seem to be ignored. Ha ... I just tell you the regex (= short for regular expression) I am using in my script:

sub is_redirect {
    my $self = shift;
    # caching
    unless (defined $self->{is_redirect}) {
        defined $self->text or die;
	$self->{is_redirect} = $self->text =~ /^(#REDIRECT:?\s*\[\[[^[]+\]\])\s*/i ? 1 : 0; # <--- this is the regex
    return $self->{is_redirect};

This is a code snippet. It is a subroutine (sub) which I named "is_redirect". It returns a "true value" (here "1", in Perl everything which is not "blank" or zero) when the text contains a redirect and "0" else. The parent code uses that return value. Don't worry about the rest, you will need some context if you want to understand. It is not really complicated, but it is the object orientated style. You will need some hints. At least ... ;-)

The regex says:

#REDIRECT ... the text
^ ... the text starts with #REDIRECT
:? ... means a colon or nothing ... "?" = the preceding character (here a ":")  or nothing
\s ... is a symbol for "whitespace" like blanks, tabs, ...
* .... similar to "?" but means the preceding character (here \s) 0, 1 or N times; e. g 3 blanks
\[ ... is a "[", we need the "\", because "[" has a special meaning
\[ ... again (the second "[" of the wikilink)
[^[] ... [^agt] is "one charcter, but not a g or t"; here: any character but not "]"
+ ... like "?" and "*"; means "1 or more times the preceding character"
(...) ... is for grouping, is not needed here
\s* ... means "there might be whitespace at the end"
i ... means "case insensitive"

The regex does not care about characters after the \s*, so it matches 
pages with text after the link. I was surprised that these pages are working redirects.

Ad 2) If you want to create Categoria:Praesidentes Civitatum Foederatarum Americae below Categoria:America you just have to click on the red link and enter [[Categoria:America]] in the empty text field. Maybe you want to enter some description of the category. Just do it. The names of the articles which are tagged with this category will be listed below this description text and above the leading Categoria:America.

Ad Perl) Great that you want to get in contact with Perl. If I can help, just tell me and don't be frustrated if you sometimes do not understand anything. There is a lot of context ... The quickest way is to read the tutorials again and again and stop when you think it's boring. Maybe after 10 minutes or 10 hours. Independent from that you should try to solve a little personal problem, search for working scripts and try to understand something of the code. It is a big motivation if you have a working script and just have to make little adaptions.

I'd suggest the following steps:

  • Install Perl on your system. Is it Windows or a Mac? On Unix it will be preinstalled, maybe on the Mac either ... I can help.
  • Then make your first script, the "Hello world", the legendary first programm in every language (luckily provided by the Vicipaedia, here it is a Salve, munde!. It just prints "Salve, munde!"; you can change the string to "Salve Iustinus" and you will see that Perl is not aware of the Vocativ, it just prints what you've told it ;-)
  • Download the dump of the Vicipaedia
  • I can give you a little script and you can start with your tests
  • Look what others have written:, search for "Latin", search for other words ...
  • Play around, ask many questions, it will be very hard if you don't ask ...


Maybe there should be 3 redirects and a short message on page CFA that CFA is the preferred name here and that the other names should not be used.

--Roland2 15:40, 13 Maii 2006 (UTC)

Categoria:Praesidentes Civitatum Foederatarum AmericaeRecensere

Reverted my edists. You can create "Categoria:Praesidentes Civitatum Foederatarum Americae". The only thing to do, is, to categorize page "Categoria:Praesidentes Civitatum Foederatarum Americae" in the common manner. --Roland2 15:59, 13 Maii 2006 (UTC)

I've put it into Categoria:Civitates Americae Unitae (?) and Categoria:Viri publici. --Roland2 18:57, 13 Maii 2006 (UTC)

Numeri RomaniRecensere

Salve. gratias pro verbis tuis. scisne alium modum scribendi "in 1950s" quod perspicue est Anglicum? (vide Noam Chomsky). scripsi "c. 1950" sed dissimilis est sententia.--Lo2u 10:33, 14 Maii 2006 (UTC)


Thanks for the rules. :-) --16:42, 14 Maii 2006 (UTC)

defectus solisRecensere

I took that name from this latin text, in which however this word is only used as verb, not as noun. But I think in the Loeb book they used defectio Solis in their explaining headline, I can check this again this evening. Btw my concern was somewhat about copyright, always an issue in wikipedia. The original text is openly online for everybody and I have given the link and of course the text is too old that any Ammianus Marcellinus could claim any copyrights but I was not 100 % sure. Alex1011 15:07, 15 Maii 2006 (UTC)


Shouldn't we have something like an {{invitatio}} for anonymous users? Maybe with something like this in several languages:

Hello anonymous user!

Would you like to become a named user here?

Yes? ... ok, these are the steps:

  1. Click on "Aperire conventum" in the upper right corner of the page.
  2. This opens the login page.
  3. Nomen tuum usoris: Enter the user name which you want to have here ... it is rather complicated to change this name later.
  4. Tessera tua: Choose a password and enter it ... you should not forget this password ;-)
  5. Click on the button "Aperire conventum" below the fields ... and you are a named user.

If you need help, please ask in the Vicipaedia:Taberna.

--Roland2 20:40, 15 Maii 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'll do the German, would you do the English as well? Really. Thanks. --Roland2 21:16, 15 Maii 2006 (UTC)

Technically hiding can be done, see en:Template:World Heritage Sites in Austria, for example: Hide/Show. This is done using en:Cascading Style Sheets. However, I know just basics about CSSs and I think we should better have a simple solution anyway. I prefer your 2-pages-solution.

Maybe "Formula:invitatio" with just the Latin section and a navigation bar below (with small flags) like ...

Salve usor inscite!

Tibi placeatne usor cum nomine hic fieri?


Si opes seu auxilium quaereas, amamus te in taberna petere.

Anglice Hispanice Polonice ...

And then maybe "Vicipaedia:Invitatio pro usoribus inscitis" ...

... what is now in "Formula:invitatio" ...

--Roland2 20:42, 16 Maii 2006 (UTC)


I've analyzed the pages which are actually tagged as victionarium. See Usor:Roland2#Victionarium. What do you think about A1, A2, B, C? --Roland2 23:18, 15 Maii 2006 (UTC)

Two funny questions:
  1. Which nouns are regular dictionary entries but should not be in an encyclopaedia with 20 Million entries?
  2. How many entries can an English encyclopaedia have?
--Roland2 21:32, 17 Maii 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, it seems that dictionary/encyclopaedia depends more on the content than on the word itself ... provided the word is a noun. And relevant/irrelevant depends more on the number of entries than on the entry itself. It's all relative. ;-)

It seems, there is also a difference between a lexicon and an encyclopaedia:

  • Encyclopaedia: Anglo-american tradition ... few long articles
  • Lexicon: Continental (ups, I was near to say "European") tradition ... many short articles

I do not know, maybe it's just a prejudice or an idea which I got when I first saw the Encyclopaedia Britannica and compared it to the Brockhaus.

A dictionary tells you nothing more than what you need, to know what the word means, but nothing about the object it names. It tells about the relation between the words, their forms, their history. But it tells you nothing about the things these words are representing. That's my understanding

There are many stubs in the Vicipaedia and maybe we could have several levels of stubs where one could be: "At the moment this article has the nature of a dictionary entry. See the Victionarium for more information about this word. When this article will keep more encyclopaedic content, this template may be removed. Please help expanding it."

It wouldn't be bad - I would say it would be definitively good - to have the Victionarium logo on that template, the only thing, that is a mental problem for me, is this "move" advice.

What should we move? The content ... which is obviously missing. The definition ... which needs not to be moved, in my opinion. The article itself ... that would be re-moving/deleting. Why? It will be a valid encyclopedian entry some time, maybe in 50 yerars. It depends on the content.

For me it's getting clearer and clearer. You are right, it's true: There has to be done something with this short definitions, which look like a dictionary entry. But the template should say: "Yes, we want to keep it, but it needs much work."

Or, even better: This entry has the correct Latin title, however, it has a poor content and looks much like a dictionary entry yet, so see the Victionarium as well. Please, help expanding it to an informative article with relevant information."

The existing "move ad victionarium" might get a red color and could be used for articles which should not be expanded. This template would inform the user that the Vicipaedia is the wrong place for that entry and he should consult the Victionarium. The title of the template might say something like "do not expand this dictionary entry" or "do not expand it" or "don't expand" and the corresponding category might be "victionary entry".

Just some ideas, I am not sure. What is your opinion?

--Roland2 02:00, 18 Maii 2006 (UTC)

P. S.: Happy drumming!

Perhaps, use a formula that reads, "[[vict:{{PAGENAME}}contenta]] huius ad tempus magis pertinent [[victionarium|victionario]]. si in futurum paginam re de hac debeamus tenere, contenta expandenda erint, quibus hic scriptis repositis." or something more elegant, when I wake up tomorrow, in place of the way we currently use the move ad victionarium template.--Ioscius 03:48, 18 Maii 2006 (UTC)

Perl exampleRecensere

To give you an idea, what it needs to create page Usor:Roland2/temp2:


# Titles from the Victionarium

use strict;
use warnings;

my $infile  = 'c:\$vicipaedia\lawiktionary-20060511-all-titles-in-ns0';
my $outfile = 'victionarium.txt';

open my $IN, '<', $infile or die;
open my $OUT, '>', $outfile;
my @lines = sort {ucfirst $a cmp ucfirst $b} (<$IN>);
print $OUT "==Entries from the Victionarium==\n";
for (@lines) {
    print $OUT "[[$_]] ([$_ V])\n";
close $IN or die;
close $OUT or die;

It is rather verbose. This will do exactly the same, but is bad style:

open IN, '<', 'c:\$vicipaedia\lawiktionary-20060511-all-titles-in-ns0';
open OUT, '>', 'victionarium.txt';
print OUT "==Entries from the Victionarium==\n";
for (sort {ucfirst $a cmp ucfirst $b} (<IN>)) {
    print OUT "[[$_]] ([$_ V])\n";

--Roland2 18:47, 19 Maii 2006 (UTC)

Urbes HispaniaeRecensere

UV Ioshum salutem dicit.

Scripsisti in [2]: "make this a category, not a page".

Ego censeo indicem urbium utilem esse, quia index urbium paginas carentes monstrat, dum categoria paginas carentes non monstrat. Vide exempli gratia: Index urbium (Germaniae) vel Index locorum in Regno Unito.

Salve! --UV 22:03, 21 Maii 2006 (UTC)

Forsitan Categoria:Indices (Geographia) subcategoria Geographiae? Nam etiam indices insularum fluminumque sunt, vide Specialis:Allpages/Index. --UV 18:54, 22 Maii 2006 (UTC)


... :-) ... I needed a translation for "introduction" (Wikipedia:Introduction), please ... any ideas? There are so many similar words to choose from: [3] I think we need more corresponding pages to the "Wikipedia" namespace of the English and other Wikipedias ... and the corresponding interwiki links. --Roland2 22:07, 22 Maii 2006 (UTC)

"introductio" seems best to me ... if someone forced me to have an opinion. --Roland2 22:18, 22 Maii 2006 (UTC)

Ok, here it is ... Vicipaedia:Praefatio ;-) --Roland2 17:36, 23 Maii 2006 (UTC)

I hope it is ok, that I have copied your words to there. Please edit it as you want. --Roland2 17:49, 23 Maii 2006 (UTC)
... as you like. ;-) --Roland2 18:20, 23 Maii 2006 (UTC)


Per default a table of contents (TOC) is generated when there are >= 4 headers in the article. With TOC/NOTOC you can enforce a specific behaviour. Mostly you will not need it. --Roland2 18:37, 23 Maii 2006 (UTC)


Orbiliusmagister Iosue Salutem Dicit!

Just tripping here after some dirty work on it.source. I noticed your big effort on Vicipaedia:Invitatio and I couldn't stop (well, as a complete wikiholic I happen to look for "edit" label even in normal websites whenever I see typos), so I tweaked a little the Latin message to have it fit to the other languages. My problem (that will always keep me from being more active here) is: I'm totally out of the "modern Latin" affair, I read and translate too much Livius, Vergilius, Cicero to think about rotae cummeae (tyres) aut Stephanus Negotia (Steve Jobs) without feeling my bowels shrink with disgust... so if my Latin emendationes look too jurassic for an invitation, roll them back. Ave atque vale from εΔω 22:01, 23 Maii 2006 (UTC) (beginner mouthdrummer, former pupil of Wes Carrol])


The dwarf says: This is a circular categorization ;-) --Roland2 23:07, 23 Maii 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll lie quiet. :-) --Roland2 23:19, 23 Maii 2006 (UTC)


There is a similar discussion we had before, see ;-) --Roland2 06:33, 25 Maii 2006 (UTC)


After the clear votum on Vicipaedia:Petitio magistratus, I asked the stewards to assign you (and the two other candidates) administrator rights, which they did.

Congratulations, glad to have you here! (And good luck with the new tasks – you may have noticed my inclination for quickly filling up the Categoria:Deletiones propositae …)

--UV 17:06, 26 Maii 2006 (UTC)

I see you are busy ... :-) --Roland2 18:14, 26 Maii 2006 (UTC)

aemilia et romaniaRecensere

It has been a redirect before, maybe we need some reflections about the nature of redirects. I got the feeling, that people do not care much about redirects here ... which I think is a good idea. If someone creates a page with a wrong title, it is simply moved and we have another redirect. I think, cleanup of redirects should be a separate task, which might not be necessary at all. That's provocating, I know. But, really, what could be reasons for cleaning up redirects? If nobody uses a term which is redirected, he will not even realize that it exists. And if he uses a redirected term, he will be corrected immediately. But: Why did he use the wrong term? --Roland2 00:44, 27 Maii 2006 (UTC)

See [4] --Roland2 01:06, 27 Maii 2006 (UTC)

Errors in Lacrimatus est IesusRecensere

Hello, I realized that you noticed some mistakes in my entries on the Vicipaedia. Sadly, I have no real Latin education, I am only interested in the language and learn it for myself. I am sorry if my work on the Vicipaedia is that disappointing. However, I am pretty convinced that my entries are correct, but let's see if you still realize mistakes after my explanation.

"igitur corpus suum solidum fuit"
-> therefore his body was genuine/real
"Sed non cogitatur certe si Iesus lacrimavit quia Lazarus mortuus erat, aut quia propinqui sui in potentiam Iesu non crediderunt, quia lacrimaverant, quamquam Iesus fuit ad eos."
-> But one does not know for sure if Jesus cried because Lazarus had died, or because his (Lazarus') relatives did not believe in Jesus' power, because they (had) cried, although Jesus was with them.

I don't want to do anything in that "Forma gramatica specialis" part, I just set it up because others may have information about it, I just know that it IS a special grammatical form, because it'd have to be "Iesus lacrimavit", because "lacrimare" is no deponent, but I don't know why it is used in passive voice nevertheless.

Of course lacrimo isn't a deponent verb, but according to Lewis & Short, lacrimor is, and it's attested in several early postclassical sources. Deponents form an unstable class; they appear to derive from PIE middles. Many of them have active analogs, so finding lachrimor alongside lacrimo is no surprise. IacobusAmor
Aha, that makes sense. You said your latin education stopped in 11th grade? ;]--Ioscius 15:33, 14 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
My formal Latin education! ;) IacobusAmor

Maybe the whole thing is now clear to you, or maybe not, contact me and give me further information, I am looking forward to another message.

--Rex Latini 19:23, 27 Maii 2006 (MET)


Dera Josh,

Alea iacta est. Now the power is yours to yield, handle and unleash! Beware you, enemies of Vicipaedia.

Well, enough with bombastic sentences. Simply kudos to the "Dynamic Trio"... (just recalling the "dynamic duo" formed by Batman and Robin).

Extend these congrats to Tbook and Roland, now I'm in a hurry to correct my pupils' classworks.

By the way, a brand new user, Usor:Roccuz is a pupil in the same school in which I am teaching, a true wikiholic very clever both in Latin and Greek. Hope he'll stick around here!--εΔω 17:48, 27 Maii 2006 (UTC)

iacobus cambrius + dumpRecensere

We should make a page ;-)

According to your request: To make such a search, I would have to download the several database dumps. See Vicipaedia:Praefatio#XML_dumps. The Latin dump has 3.8 MB, the English dump has 2.000 MB. Too big for me :-(

There was a tool, Vicipaedia:Wikisign, which unfortunately is offline now. With that tool someone could make database requests. Hopefully it will go online again. --Roland2 22:06, 29 Maii 2006 (UTC)


I have added this ... and you might want to read all in the MediaWiki [[m:.....]], maybe starting here ;-) Just a request: If you find something interesting, please add it to Vicipaedia:Praefatio or on a page of it's own. It's easier for me to contribute to existing pages. :-) --Roland2 23:26, 29 Maii 2006 (UTC)


I've sent you an email today in the morning ;-) I just went to your user page and clicked on "Mittere cursum publicum electronicum huic usoro". It seems you have activated this feature. It worked and you should have received my mail at the account you have configured in "praeferentiae". Let's try first, if you can write an email to me: Go to my page and click on "Mittere cursum publicum electronicum huic usoro" in the left frame. --Roland2 00:15, 30 Maii 2006 (UTC)

Just tripping in here... excuse my intrusion... "huic usoro" --> "huic usori". Ciao Josh! - εΔω 19:35, 1 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


Thank you for your message! Ego sum novissimus usor vicipaediae latinae, et possum contribut cum ¿media? (pauperrima) latininitate. Gnosces tu "thank you" in latina? Cur habet Vicipaedia Anglica nihl "res" de latinitate (to learn)? --Argentino 00:49, 2 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Re: Iacobus "Vales"Recensere

I thought that was the correct spelling after looking here and seeing that his Latin name is Iacobus Vales.

Ok, I just visited the page again and saw that you corrected it. --Shultz 02:00, 2 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Roman numerals in articlesRecensere

I see that you reverted the roman numeral here. I thought they were supposed to be standard and thus show themselves as regularly on the Latin Wikipedia as arabic numerals do here and many places elsewhere. I don't understand why you removed the roman numeral if this Wikipedia is about the Roman language of Latin. --Shultz 13:40, 2 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Gratias agoRecensere

Tibi ago gratias for welcoming me :) --Dacxjo 20:08, 4 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Venice... what a mess!Recensere

Dear Josh,

forgive my English, no time for Latin now. Celerrime, lacks a standard in spelling, and since many contributors write from Verona (myself and Nick1915) Venice, Padua, Belluno, Treviso, Vicenza, there's still a mess about it which has to be solved. Venexia is the traditional spelling as written by it:Carlo Goldoni, which is based on the "x" writing of the /ʒ/ phoneme, but since XVIII century the pronaounciation has changed, and Italian alphabet never distinguish between /s/ and /z/ and always writes "s". So, being the actual pronaounciation of "Venice" different form dialect to dialect, taking the current pronounciation /ve'nes:ja/ as standard, in without a trueand unquestioned legitimation "sz" has been chosen to transliterate that /s:/. If we stick to local pronounciation we can hear "Vinégia", or "Venéssia" a few kilometers apart. After looking at Venetia here I think you chose the best compromise: historical spelling to a wikipedia link. Well done! - εΔω 13:57, 5 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Be careful with "Liebrus esto mihi aerumnas seu quaesitiones ferre" to our young polyglot Daĉjo: apart form "Liebrus -->Liber or "Quaesitiones --> quaestiones", literally you would mean "Feel free to endure my lamentations or quarrels on your shoulders for me (to my advantage)"... and you don't want to scare newcomers with this, d'ya?  

I'd exploit the typical Latin brevitas with a Libenter quidvis roga: tibi rescribam...


I checked it. I'm interesting about genealogy, so I must see old documents. In those, only urbs Końskowola was named oppidum. Rest, all villages was named by its names, in oryginal, not latin version, with all diacritics. See foto from oryginal parish book in Końskowola, 1753/54: Foto. Look oryginal name: Pożóg, Chrząchówek, Młynki, and oppidum. Prenames are latinized, but names not. This foto is only for you, not for wikipedia, because I'm not it's autor and i haven't got a copyright.

Another one comment. Does Vicus, -i can refers to village?

Now I don't know, how to name article (my experimenta) - do latinize its names artificialy, or not? But do you imagine latin name Chrząchów, with polish diacritics? What do you think? Bocianski 14:00, 5 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

tres linguaeRecensere

quid dicere velis: "quae ratio pro tres linguas nominis vulgi habendo?" - (Tirolum Meridionale (Germanice) tres linguas officiales habet, Italica, Germana, Ladina.) - Gratias pro "arcus" Alex1011 19:12, 5 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Ioscius!Recensere

I can't play blindfold chess, but I'd really like to. :) Where did you learn Italian? And, above all, why are you so thrilled by Latin? I love Latin poetry, but I've never thought about getting down to studying this idiom more than carefully as I suppose you've done. It sounds weird to me (there are far more spoken languages in the world!) but also fascinates me. --Dacxjo 20:19, 6 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

I'd prefer you to write to me on the Italian wikipedia. (is this sentence correct?) :) --Dacxjo 21:36, 8 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Word orderRecensere

is confusing in the classical books. I 'm still trying to learn the language but when the adjectives and adverbs are a bit removed from the subject of what they modify, its confusing. The recent latin works, articles written by some Japanese here, and for example Rafael del Riego are a bit easier to understand. I pretend they are a strange form of Italian or Spanish. BTW, this is a superb site for your students. Also the bible section of 07:21, 7 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Ioscius, following your sword example ... what do you think about pagina sua disputationis --> pagina disputationis sua? Melior vel peior? --Roland2 14:49, 9 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

"emending" vulgoRecensere

I'm not sure we really want to "fix" vulgo in every article. Vulgo has a long tradition of being used in the way it has been used here on Wikipedia, so this usage is in line with good Latin style. Furthermore, many names are not translated in most languages (Latin being a stubborn exception to this rule), and it seems silly to specify that Galileo Galilei is his Italian name when the exact same form is used in French, Spanish, German, English and so on. My policy up to this point has been to use vulgo when a name is mostly universal, and specify the language when it is not. --Iustinus 19:06, 7 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Order of the casesRecensere

Please have a look at --Roland2 13:34, 9 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

word's orderRecensere

Hey, we can mix up the letters as well ;-) --Roland2 15:22, 9 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


Thanks for the corrections, Ioscius, as I said on my user page I don't speak Latin at the moment (though I can usually read it based on my knowledge of romance languages) but I hope to learn soon. I like the logical use of cases in Latin, but it will take some time to get used to, as will declined verbs. At present I speak English, Irish, French and a very basic level of Italian. Wikipedia is great for expanding my llinguistical horizons. I think I'll be reading articles for a while before contributing. Joe Byrne - Disputatum - :ga: - :en: - :fr: 22:25, 9 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


Dear Ioscius, I am thinking about setting up a CommonsTicker (see m:User:Duesentrieb/CommonsTicker) for the Latin wikipedia. I talked to Roland2 about it and he also thought we should get one.

Could you please take a quick look whether the page titles I set up make sense? At this time, it is no problem to change them if I picked a bad title. After the setup is complete, it would be more difficult and would require intervention from the CommonsTicker crew.

Thank you! --UV 01:53, 11 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. What I had in mind was
* Vicipaedia:Acta Vicimediae Communium – “Commons log” (the author calls it “CommonsTicker”)
* Formula:Actum Vicimediae Communium – “Commons log entry” (the author calls it “TickerEntry”)
* Formula:Actorum Vicimediae Communium genus – “Type of Commons log entries” (the author calls it “TickerAction”). This template holds most of the interface messages relating to the different types of log entries that may occur (deletion, request for deletion, removal of a request for deletion, etc.) See the source code of this template.
Does this name make sense? Should I change it? Should I further explain the purpose of the template in its noinclude section?
BTW: No user will ever need to use the two templates. They are just used by the bot. Still, they should have names that are correct and make sense.
Greetings, --UV 16:17, 11 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

In Vicipaedia:CategoriaRecensere

... I've answered on my talk page. --Roland2 10:20, 11 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


Hm, I am realizing that it is not so easy to extend this short description. Please help me by asking some questions. :-) --Roland2 13:52, 11 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


What means relinqua? ;-) See [5] --Roland2 06:06, 13 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


Ciao. Per rispondere alla tua domanda, non direi che io ho appreso l'italiano, ma che lo sto apprendendo [puoi anche usare il verbo imparare, che è un po' più comune di apprendere]! =] Una delle mie nonne ha parlato parlava meco con me [meco esiste, ma è una parola letteraria] in nnapulitano napoletano, l'altra in sicilianuo, e vari altri di mi della mia famiglia in italiano quando ero un bambino. Sfortunamente, tutti coloro che lo potevano lo parlare [o potevano parlarlo], sono morti. Ho studiato all'università due semestrei, e, da allora, da solo. Voglio [meglio vorrei] di studiare in Sicilia, a Palermo o Siracusa, dopo che avrò finito finirò il mio master (due anni). Così, per faveore, modifica quello che ho scritto, quando è scorretto! =] [...] Non lo so perché io amo la lingua latina. All'inizio, ho vogliato voluto studiarlo perché è il genitore delle lingue romantiche romanze. In tempo Nel tempo, voglio sapere a parlare con fluidità perfetta italiano, spagnolo, francese, sicilianu, nnapulitano, venessia, català, [siciliano, napoletano, veneziano, catalano :)] ad infinitum eccetera, e così ho creduto che era [meglio fosse] una buonna idea a studiare latino avanti prima.

Your Italian is quite fluent, just pay attention to the irregulare past participles [appreso, voluto, ecc.]. I'll be very pleased if you could help me. I have an English exam on Saturday so maybe I'm going to translate some articles from Italian into English so that I can improve my writing. The best thing would be to meet each other and talk for a bit, but it's almost impossible, at least before Saturday, isn't it? :) Have you ever come to Italy? [please, correct my faults, too! ;)] --Dacxjo 06:48, 13 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


Please see Disputatio_Usoris:Haruspex#vulgo-link_in_Hibernia --Roland2 07:49, 15 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


Si ille vos placeat. Corrige iste:Etiam membrum Oceania/Asia est. (Also a member of Oceania, Asia). Respondea sub Oceania portio. (I hope my latin was readable? : Please correct this <The pathetic and pretentious latin sentence> . Please respond under the Oceania section ) Gratias ago. --Jondel 08:59, 15 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


Irenaeus Iosho sal. In dissertatione de Empedocle philosopho recensenda ad versionem antiquiorem revertisti, quamvis haec a latinitate recta adeo abhorreret, ut vix sensus ullus inveniri possit. cur id feceris rogo adhortorque te, ut versionem meliorem restituas.


Gratias ago pro salutatione recepta nec non resaluto te, Ioshe administrator. Neque vero tecum consentire possum de quaestionibus ad artem grammaticam pertinentibus. Elementorum illa nomina, quae admones, appositiones sunt, quae eodem casu additae esse debent quam illa ad quae referuntur verba. quod quidem pronomina demonstrativa per copulam esse cum aliquo praedicativo coniuncta eiusdem generis esse debent atque praedicativum illud, effusius fortasse repetendum non est. Vale.


You are watching ...? --Roland2 20:12, 17 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


Which word should we use for licence (examples of licences are: GFDL, PD, the Creative Commons licences, …)?

The reason why I am asking: I noticed that lots of uploaded images here do not clearly specify their source and the applicable licence, and in a first step I am thinking of tagging those with a template {{Permissum dubium}} or something like that. What do you think about this?

I think we should encourage people to upload their images not here to the Latin wikipedia, but to Commons. That way, the images can be used in all wikipedias and other Wikimedia projects just as if they were uploaded locally. What's more, if images are uploaded there and not here, it's the guys over there that have to deal with copyright problems and not us ;-] --UV 00:47, 18 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Potestas and licentia are the words I know for license, it is the weekend, and I am therefore unable to do more research say at the department, but let me take a look around online...I'll get back to you. (my praeferentia (WITH ONE R!!!) is licentia).--Ioscius 04:42, 18 Iunii 2006 (UTC)
As for images, I could not agree with you more. I think commons is without doubt the place for any is for the good of the project.--Ioscius 04:44, 18 Iunii 2006 (UTC)
Ioscius, no need to hurry! If you have some time to look that up some time in the next few days, that's just perfect! Stowasser gives a translation for licentia that goes very much in the direction of wilful, wanton and reckless way of acting. While it is true that a licence conveys upon the bearer the right to exercise at will those rights covered by the licence, all the other rights not covered by the specific licence will not be conferred. That makes me hesitant a little with regard to the word licentia. --UV 11:16, 18 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

I have now started to look through the uploaded images to find

  • the ones without any license that need to be deleted,
  • the ones that take up server space unnecessarily since the same image is uploaded on commons,
  • the ones that “hide” a different image of the same name on commons, thus making the latter inaccessible from the Latin wikipedia,
  • the ones that should be moved to Commons in order to make them accessible by other wikipedias as well,
  • etc.

In my view, we should (ideally) have no images uploaded to the Latin wikipedia at all. All images should be uploaded to commons (and, that way, it's the guys over there that have to deal with copyright problems and not us ;-])

Right now, we have 400+ images here. I have tagged ~30 as {{Permissio dubia}} (placing them in Categoria:Imagines permissione dubia) and notified their uploaders on their user talk page. Furthermore, I have up to now tagged 81 images as {{NowCommons}} (placing them in Categoria:Imagines qui etiam in Vicimedia Communia oneratae sunt).

As it is much easier to sift through the remaining images when at least some are gone already, may I ask you to start dealing with the images in this category when you have some time?

Here is what to do with the images tagged as {{NowCommons}}:

These images fall into one of four groups:

same filename on la and on commons different filename on la and on commons
exactly the same image on la and on commons Delete. No one will notice. Please double-check that the image on la is not used any more (not the Nexus ad hanc paginam link, but the Nexus ad imaginem section directly on the image description page, near the bottom of the page), then delete.
nearly the same image on la and on commons This may be when the image on commons has a higher resolution (larger size) than the image here, but is otherwise the same.

Delete, but please check the pages where the image is used whether they still look nice (full size images becoming larger).

This may be when the image on commons has a higher resolution (larger size) than the image here, but is otherwise the same, or (mostly for flags and coats-of-arms:) when there is a vector version (e. g. SVG) available instead of a raster version (e. g. PNG, JPG, GIF)

Please double-check that the image on la is not used any more (Nexus ad imaginem directly on the image description page, near the bottom of the page), then delete.

Thank you! --UV 23:07, 25 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


For your convenience I've created {{ok}} ;-) --Roland2 08:37, 18 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

gratias ago! --UV 11:16, 18 Iunii 2006 (UTC)
Haha, thanks Rol!--Ioscius 14:32, 18 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Talking about spoken Latin ...Recensere

Please see Vicipaedia:Pagina [6]. --Roland2 13:45, 18 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


I was missing a page where these differences are explained and so I created a section "termini" on page urbs. I'd prefer to have an extra page oppidum. I see that people are confused when an "oppidum" shall be categorized in Categoria:urbes. - Shall oppidi be categorized in Categoria:urbes? There are some other terms ... natio/civitas ... pupulus/gens ... This redirect means: We do not have an article, read (!) that article. ;-) --Roland2 15:46, 18 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


May I ask for correction, please? :-) --Roland2 18:52, 18 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

The una should stand for one, because these are two single sheets ...? --Roland2 19:07, 18 Iunii 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but it is not necessary...pagina translates as "one page" or "a page" or "the page"...--Ioscius 19:51, 18 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Friedricus IIRecensere

Please have a look at Disputatio Usoris:Irenaeus. Thanks. --Roland2 21:50, 18 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


[7] ... is this Latin? --Roland2 23:08, 18 Iunii 2006 (UTC) Thanks! --Roland2 23:18, 18 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


I'd like to put the sources of an article (like {{Viri Illustres}}) into a special section. See [8]. Is "fontes" ok and shall it be positioned before "vide etiam"? Reasons for such a section:

  • people should be reminded of providing references
  • formatting is easier
  • the article is generally better structured then

--Roland2 20:28, 19 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


Salve, Ioshe! :D

Hi, Josh, this is Willow. I've been working with Linas on the so-called "principle of least action" in physics and we've been pursuing the original texts. I've been translating the second appendix to Euler's Methodus inveniendi which I've been posting to Wikisource at Wikisource:Methodus inveniendi/Additamentum II. I kind of want to finish the translation myself using a consistent notation, if that's OK with you. But I'm only a middling Latin scholar and I've never translated a scientific Latin work before, so I'm not sure that I did everything OK -- would you mind checking my translation to make sure that I didn't make any gross errors? I'd appreciate it very much. I'll probably finish typing in my translation later on today.

If you have any suggestions for the translation style itself, that'd also be great. As a translator, I sometimes stray from a literal word-by-word translation into something that means the same for modern readers; but at the same time, I don't want to take too many liberties with the text itself.

Thanks muchly muchly! :) WillowW 15:00, 20 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


There are some examples here (search for "ref"):


Di indigetes
<ref name="grimal">


<ref name="Rau_53">
<div style="font-size: 85%">

Roma antiqua
<ref>Tuomisto, Pekka (2002). ''Rooman konsulit'' ("Consules Romani").</ref>

The section titles seem to be Notae and Bibliographia. The combination of {{ref|Theophrastus}} and <references/> seems to be promising. --Roland2 15:30, 20 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Maybe "Fontes" is more general than "Bibliographia":

  1. "Bibliographia" seems to be a list of printed literature. - What about online ressources?
  2. de:Bibliografie says eine vollständige Übersicht der Literatur zu einem Gegenstand (= a complete overview about a topic); the list of the literature which has been used for a book is a "Literaturverzeichnis" (Verzeichnis = catalogue, listing, index), says de:Bibliografie; en:Bibliography says an overview of publications in a particular category

Seems that "Notae" (maybe {{ref}} + {{refs}}) and "Fontes" would be fine. --Roland2 17:07, 21 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

  • {{ref}} ... not like it is now defined but to be used like {{ref|name|yadda yadda yadda}} or {{ref|name|{{xxx}} yadda yadda yadda}}, where xxx is something like maxcorrigenda, ...
  • {{refs}} ... short for <references />, the marker where to put the list of references.

If this is generally ok for you and we have a good proposal for the section names, we could post the proposal at the taberna. Or, even better, start a page Vicipaedia:Fons or something alike ... --Roland2 18:55, 21 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

See Vicipaedia:Fons. --Roland2 21:47, 22 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Euler: Additamentum 2 Methodus Inveniendi Lineas Curvas Maximi Minive Proprietate GaudentesRecensere


Thanks for the note on my user page. I don't think its all that important or critical to have a translation; but it was interesting to us. If its interesting to you, then that great. The discussion was at en:Talk:Principle of least action. That article (en:Principle of least action) has two sentances of Latin in it; and we're interested in knowning what the paragraphs before and after these sentances say. The document is here. As this is a historically interesting document, it may be worth having a WP entry that translated the first two or three pages. Maybe. If its interesting to you. :). Thanks en:User:Linas 00:27, 21 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Thank you!Recensere

Thanks for your kind words about my user page -- I appreciate you taking the time to say so! I am one of those who recognizes all the limitations and weaknesses of Wikipedia, but I can't help thinking it's working anyway. (My favorite quote, from Raul's Laws: "Wikipedia can't work in theory. It only works in practice.") Anyway, it's nice to know that someone is reading. I appreciate all your good work here, and promoting us in the "real world" -- good luck with all you do, and be sure to let me know if you need help with anything. Cheers! 01:23, 21 Iunii 2006 (UTC) (Catherine)


Did you know that the Babel list is a task list? :-) --Roland2 05:21, 21 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

voto su la.wikisourceRecensere

Ho visto che sei intervenuto su la.wikisource.
Ti ringrazio per la traduzione ed il voto positivo alla proposta, ma ci sono un paio di cose da sistemare:
1) Dovresti confermare il voto perchè l'hai insertito da non loggato (io mi fido, ma come puoi capire anche qualsiasi altro potrebbe aver votato a tuo nome). Basta che risalvi la pagina da loggato.
2) Nella traduzione del latino e dell'italiano hai travisato il senso della mia proposta ed ne hai modificato il significato (spero involontariamente): il namespace scriptor serve per contenere tutte le pagine degli autori/scrittori non solo quelli moderni e il namespace principale dovrà contenere tutte le pagine delle opere.

Quindi appena possibile ti chiedo di fare un salto su wikisource e di ripristinare il significato originale, anche perchè la votazione è in corso. Ho rispristinato il significato, ma visto il mio latino alquanto scarso se mi controlli la traduzione mi fa piacere. A presto e se hai tempo per darci una mano su la.source sarei molto felice!!! Ciao!

Ciao, --Accurimbono 08:44, 21 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion on template:in progressu!
Feel free to change anythings you see is wrong!
Ciao! :) --Accurimbono 16:32, 21 Iunii 2006 (UTC)
PS:I hope you have understood my previous post, I thought you are italian!!! :)
Ti ho risposto qui.
Ciao! --Accurimbono 10:11, 22 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


What about these templates:

{{vict|urbs|-is|f}} ... "is" instead of "-is"? res, -ei or res, rei?


'''Urbs''' ({{vict|urbs|-is|f}}, {{en|city}}, {{de|Stadt}}) blabla ...


... blabla provincia ({{de|Bundesland}}) blabla ...

--Roland2 17:58, 21 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Should it be
  1. "vict|urbs|-is|f." or
  2. "vict|urbs|-is|f" or
  3. "vict|urbs|is|f"?
Number 1 and 2 would be ok for "Iuppiter, Iovis" as well, number 3 wouldn't. Are there reasons to prefer number 1 over number 2? --Roland2 05:23, 22 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

De usu verbi "ecce"Recensere

Ecce is definitely normally followed by a nominative. I don't know why Traupmann would violate this norm. That said, ecce does occur with the accusative in Plautus and Terence. --Iustinus 00:50, 23 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Confer "Ecce homo" Alex1011 12:06, 23 Iunii 2006 (UTC)


I've added something to Disputatio Vicipaediae:Categoria. --Roland2 21:17, 23 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

interface message translationRecensere

The behavior of the software regarding the moving of pages across namespaces was changed and the associated message is not up to date any more. Could you please update the message?

MediaWiki:Movepagetalktext new The associated talk page will be automatically moved along with it unless:
  • A non-empty talk page already exists under the new name, or
  • You uncheck the box below.

In those cases, you will have to move or merge the page manually if desired.

current Pagina disputationis huius paginae, si est, etiam necessario motabitur nisi:
  • Disputatio sub paginae novae nomine contenta habet, aut
  • Capsam subter non nota.

Ergo manu necesse disputationes motare vel contribuere erit, si vis.

Thanks! --UV 14:23, 25 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Done!--Ioscius 18:49, 28 Iunii 2006 (UTC)
Thank you! Another request: Could you please update MediaWiki:Uploadtext (this text is shown on Specialis:Upload) to urge people not to upload here but to upload to Commons (see Vicipaedia:Imago#Imagines onerare, sorry for my possibly faulty Latin there, please correct). Thanks! --UV 00:11, 29 Iunii 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, UV, did I do this one, already? Remind me, I think I did something, but not sure if it was all youa sked me to do.--Ioscius 13:28, 2 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
You did correct my errors at Vicipaedia:Imago#Imagines onerare (I am particularly ashamed of not finding the correct imperative of utor, uti), thank you for this! Could you still update MediaWiki:Uploadtext as described, please? --UV 15:53, 2 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

... and yet another request:

MediaWiki:Imagelisttext new Below is a list of '''$1''' {{plural:$1|file|files}} sorted $2.
current Subter est index {{PLURAL:$1|'''unius''' fasciculi|'''$1''' fasciculorum}} digestus $2.
Like this?--Ioscius 13:28, 2 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
What about the following: Subter est index {{plural:$1|'''unius''' imaginis|'''$1''' imaginum}} digestus $2.
Thanks! --UV 15:53, 2 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

Spanish WikipiediaRecensere

Please update in pagina prima: Spanish Wikipedia has more than 100.000 articles.

Por favor, pregunta mi en español! =] Es hecha ahora.--Ioscius 18:43, 28 Iunii 2006 (UTC)

Pues te hablo en español; muchas gracias por actualizar la portada; te felicito por lo rápido que lo has hecho. Saludos

JMB(De la Wikipedia en español)