Disputatio:Parlamentum Britannicum

Πρόλογος

Senatus, apud multas civitates, e.g. Civitates Foederatae Americae, Francia, Hispania, Italia, etc., duarum camerarum in quibus de lege et de aerarii usu deliberatur unam designat. Dubito igitur an verbum, qui in hac pagina ad Parliament significandum usus est, de aliis legislatorum conventibus uti deceat. Quapropter, etsi Parlamentum infimae esse latinitatis non nescius sum, hujus paginae titulum in Parlamentum Britanniarum mutari censeo.ThbdGrrd 19:37, 12 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Cum ThbdGrrd consentio. Nomen Senatus utile est in lingua Latina pro civitatibus ubi hoc nomen "nativum" est, ut (e.g.) Roma et C.F.A! Sed nomen Latinum mediaevale/modernum parlamentum exstat; in multis civitatibus Europaeis scriptores Latini hoc nomine utuntur, ut vidimus per Google. Credo paginam movendam esse. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:44, 13 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

[Haec addidi quae IacobusAmor in mea pagina scripsit: Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:29, 14 Augusti 2007 (UTC) ]

Ait Ainsworth's Dictionary (Londinii, ca. 1780–1830):

A parliament, Senatus.

To call, or summon, a parliament, Senatum convocare, comitia edicĕre.

To hold, or keep, a parliament, Comitia celebrare.

To prorogue a parliament, Comitia prorogare. To dissolve it, Dissolvĕre.

The parliament-house, Senaculum, curia comitialis.

A parliament-man, Senator.

Parliamentary, Ad senatum pertinens, ex usu ||parliamenti. ← Signum "||" significat verbum non esse bonum Latinum translaticium.

Rōgātor, ōris, m. 1 A demander, a desirer, a requester, a beggar. 2 The speaker of parliament, the chairman of a committee.

Sĕnātûs-consultum, i, n. An act, ordinance, or decree, of the senate, an act of parliament, an order of the house.

Ait 'Bradley's Arnold' Latin Prose Composition (Londinii [1938] 1961):

Parliament = Senate. [p. 414]

Senate, senātus, 4, m. [p. 420]

Senate house, cūria, f. [p. 420] IacobusAmor 22:06, 13 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Nescio quomodo "And so what?" latine dicitur... Equidem latinam linguam more classico scribere (i.e. quod Francogallice thème latin nuncupatur) didici. Itaque nullis verbis nisi quae in Caesaris Ciceronisque operibus reperiuntur uti licuisse et magistros cunctorum verborum quae apud posterae aetatis scriptores (e.g. Senecam vel Plinium) solum inveni possint usum severe reprehendisse memini.

Nos autem, anno 2007, a quibus res hujus temporis haud ambigue designandae sunt, istam vetustissimam regulam neglegere possumus. Quin etiam sententiis quae in Medio Aevo aut recentius creatae sunt frui Vicipaediae interest, etiamsi Robert Ainsworth et Thomas Kerchever Arnold illas "non bonum Latinum" esse censebant aut ignorabant. Ergo non solum parlamentum ad parliament (et parlement, et parlamento, etc.) significandum aptiorem esse perseveranter censeo, sed etiam quibusdam aliis verbis, quae in Medio Aevo originem habent aut quibus sententia nova tunc data est, ad instituta quae hodie dissimilia sunt simpliciter discernenda uti malo. Quapropter dieta decentior quam senatus pro Bundestag (et pro aliis verbis Theodiscis in -tag desinentibus), et camera parium decentior quam camera seu domus dominorum pro House of Lords existimo. ThbdGrrd 09:57, 15 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Vide sententiam Societatis Londiniensium Mercatorum Qui in Indiis Orientalibus Negotiantur (1600–1858): "From 1698 the company was entitled to use the motto 'Auspicio Regis et Senatus Angliae' meaning, 'Under the patronage of the King and Parliament of England'" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_East_India_Company). Ipsi Angliae cives suum "parliamentum" manifeste appellabant Senatum. Cur nunc mutandum est eorum verbum? IacobusAmor 12:10, 15 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Quia, ut supra dixi, Senatus ad designandos legislatorum conventus quorum una pars Senate aut Sénat aut Senado nominatur patenter non decebit. Visne paginas sic incipere : "Senatus Canadensis (vel Belgicus, vel Italicus, etc.) est pars senatus Canadae (vel Belgiae, vel Italiae, etc.)"? Dubito an, per solam causam imitandi quod quondam (1698!) in una civitate erat in usu, obscuris aut ambiguis verbis uti Vicipaediae intersit. Cuicumque Vicipaediae contribuit ad hujus saeculi hominum usum et quam minus ambigue scribendum est. ThbdGrrd 19:31, 15 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Quid prosunt tot verba illa? Nihil est disputandum: vanae sunt rationes meae vestraeve. Ante 1850 acta`quaedam senatui/parlamenti Latine scripta sunt; si ea consuleremus disceremus ab ore (ut dicerem) equi. Doops 20:43, 22 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Comitatus militum?

Comitatus militum? – Kaihsu 18:04, 29 Maii 2010 (UTC)

Quid rogas, nescio. --Ioscius ^∞ 21:07, 29 Maii 2010 (UTC)

Licetne Anglice loqui? I saw in the Great Hall in Winchester a list of Members of Parliament from that shire, and the Latin name used appeared to be ‘comitatus militum’. – Kaihsu 21:37, 21 Iunii 2010 (UTC)

This means "escort of soldiers". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:48, 6 Decembris 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps it referred to the High Sheriff or the Lord Lieutenant. – Kaihsu (disputatio) 04:25, 18 Maii 2017 (UTC)

Well, depending on context, that same phrase might instead mean "of the soldiers of a county" ... so you could be right! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:26, 18 Maii 2017 (UTC)

The two houses

I haven't found it easy to identify Latin names for these. I have seen "curia" (never yet "camera") but I have now at last one source, of 1649, that mentions specifically "domus dominorum" and "domus communium". Much more commonly the two gangs are called simply "Domini" and "Communes". I believe Further information welcome! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:09, 6 Decembris 2011 (UTC)

Camera Communium appears a few times in Google Books, but Domus Communium is much more common. Lesgles (disputatio) 15:41, 15 Iunii 2016 (UTC)

Fine! That's consistent with what I found in 2011, though the online evidence at that time was scarcer. I didn't then feel confident enough to eliminate "camera", but we surely could do so now. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:58, 15 Iunii 2016 (UTC)

Legatus/membrum

Concerning the translation of "member of parliament," "legatus" seems to be the most used version here, but there are a few dozen sources for "membrum parlamenti" and "membrum parliamenti", and only one for "legatus parlamenti" (see also Disputatio:Nicolaus Clegg). Lesgles (disputatio) 19:39, 13 Iulii 2016 (UTC)

That's useful to know. I don't think the use of "legatus" in text is incorrect, but we should surely change the relevant category to "Membra Parlamenti Britannici".

But I hesitate, after all, because it is best in formulating such category names to fix on a general term that could be used for all similar assemblies. The problem with "membrum" applied to a person is that it is scarcely a classical usage. I find it once in Lewis & Short, clearly a metaphorical use: Christians described as "members" i.e. limbs of Christ. So is there a better, classical term applicable to an elected member in any representative assembly? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:48, 14 Iulii 2016 (UTC)

It is a quandary. Of course, parlamentum isn't classical either, so Cicero wouldn't understand the term either way. I agree that it shouldn't be applied to other assemblies without further evidence, and legatus seems fairly close in meaning to the American representative and the French député, for instance. Lesgles (disputatio) 17:23, 15 Iulii 2016 (UTC)