Disputatio:Musica rock

Is this really the correct latinsation of 'rock music' (at least that's what i assume it's going for)? --Alynna Kasmira 03:08, 24 Ianuarii 2006 (UTC)

It seems stupid to me, but it's not the first time I've seen it. --Iustinus 07:07, 24 Ianuarii 2006 (UTC)

Leo had asked me how to translate it and I told him this (alongside LRL's "modi musici nutantium seque torquentium") was in David Morgan's lexicon. I believe he was going to use "roca et rollus". —Myces Tiberinus 16:49, 24 Ianuarii 2006 (UTC)

Seems stupid to me, too, barely tolerably so, but I'm hard pressed to think of a better one...musica saxosa for instance doesnt work at all.--Ioshus Rocchio 17:11, 24 Ianuarii 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I used that turn of phrase earlier for want of something better. I originally came up with it as a joke title for my mix tape (this was quite a while ago) of modern music with Latin lyrics: Carmina Saxosa. But of course even if "Rock & Roll" did refer to geological rocks (which of course it doesn't), "rocky" might not translate it well.

This might make me a bad wikipedian, but honestly my philosophy on things like this is that until a perfect translation should turn up we should just try to avoid the subject. --Iustinus 17:25, 24 Ianuarii 2006 (UTC)

This dispute is sort of my fault, since I'm the David Morgan in whose "lexicon" Myces found "musica rockica." That document (which I put in cyberspace 5 or 6 years ago for a couple of colleagues to consult, then forgot about) was actually a hastily compiled list of all the recent Latin coinages I had found or heard (whether good or bad, silly or serious), as a convenient reference for those colleagues and me to use while preparing an English-Latin dictionary useful for current writers and speakers of Latin (we're still working on it). I agree -- "musica rockica" (which I think I had heard someone use at a spoken Latin conference in Europe) probably goes in the silly category. Remember: not every word we use when writing in Latin has to get case endings slapped on it. The names of pop music categories -- jazz, blues, rock, rap, etc. -- seem to me prime examples of the sort of terms best used in Latin as unaltered, indeclinable loanwords (and so italicized), for several reasons: (1) it's extremely difficult to describe or define them, even at length, let alone in a short expression fit to serve as a name; (2) they're completely international; (3) adding case endings or suffixes to them tends to produce silly-looking, easily ridiculed results (are we really going to say "musica hiphopica"?); and (4) it's usually easy and natural to use the undeclined vernacular terms in apposition with declinable nouns (like "musica," "modi musici," "cantilena"), which avoids syntactical ambiguity. Latin writers from antiquity on (and especially from the Middle Ages on) have dealt in just this way with concepts it wasn't practical or worthwhile to come up with full-fledged declined Latin words for. "Musica rupica" and "musica saxosa" are of course just comic expressions, a quibble on the English word. Speaking of comic expressions, nothing beats in its genre the florid, Ciceronian, slightly moralizing translation of "rock" by the Vatican Latinists -- "modi musici nutantium seque torquentium" ("the music of those who totter and twist themselves"). In the same vein is the phrase of an Italian friend of mine, a brilliant Latinist and passionate adversary of all post-Gregorian-chant musical styles, who calls rock "modi musici hominum perditorum sese effrenate volutantium" (something like "the music of dissolute men who wallow about riotously"). Anyway, I took the liberty of going ahead and rewriting the brief article along the lines of this suggestion; if you all agree with this approach, maybe someone can have the title changed to "musica rock" (with appropriate redirects). Valete, effrenati nutatores. David Morgan, 14 April 2005.

For my part, I would agree. Musica Rock is much better than rockica or rockosa or rockifer or any other sufficized attempt. Let's go with David's suggestion.--Ioshus Rocchio 17:37, 14 Aprilis 2006 (UTC)

I agree with his emendations, too, and note the more humble tone of this suggestion, than my suggestion. Let's move it.--Ioshus Rocchio 01:43, 15 Aprilis 2006 (UTC)

And yes, musica hiphopica would be the height of absurdity.--Ioshus Rocchio 01:45, 15 Aprilis 2006 (UTC)

I think that we should use a single word to express "rock" in latin whithout using an adjective for music, also because we have to find a way to express sub-genres, like hard rock, gothic rock and so on.

Previous comment by 02:46, 20 Iulii 2006 Flauius Claudius Iulianus 

And what one word can you think of? It's not one word in any language I have ever seen.--Ioshus Rocchio 03:18, 20 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, David's suggestion of "Musica Rock" is probably the best, but I note that Stephanus apparently uses Musica Vibrivolens which is kinda cool. Perhaps as an alternate name or gloss. Also on Stephanus' list of music genres were iassiaca and agrestis. --Iustinus 03:48, 20 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

Haha, and not musica rustica? I like agrestis. As for iassica, it's too bad about the proper pronunciation of a latin z, otherwise iazica might have been cool (I have always thought the word "jazz" had as much sonorous aesthetic as visual). And while I agree with you Vibrivolens is kind of cool, and a nice coinage, I think you're probably right about David's suggestion.--Ioshus Rocchio 04:00, 20 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

Proper pronunciation of Latin z? Well, it seems to have been [zd] in Classical Attic Greek, and [ts] in Etruscan, but the fact that the Romans spelled it as ss before they had a <z> shows that it had already gone to [zz] by Helenistic times. I suspect it was just a simple [z] by the classical Roman era, but poets still (out of tradition) scanned it as a double consonant. So really there's no reason that z wouldn't work, but ss just sounds more verisimilar ;)

And yeah, most people say musica rustica, but musica agrestis might make it clearer. --Iustinus 04:32, 20 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, I remember a few notes in Palmer about the evolution of "z", and I think he argued more of the dz/zd sound, and Traupman advises "z, dz as in adze", which is certainly a more Italian take on the letter (although the Fiorentine/Toscan dialect is now standard italian, so it's curious that there is no trace of ts anywhere in italian dialects that I have heard (though admittedly, my experience is mostly limited to standard italian and southern dialects)). The ss reminds me of non attic Greek dialects that subsitute σσ for ττ, ie πράττω, πράσσω. Though, I suppose iazica would look like something transliterated from Greek too, like Tzatzicium...--Ioshus Rocchio 05:46, 20 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

Whence the kay? Isn't musica roc, or just plain roc, OK?—that is, with roc indeclinable? Alternatively: if both consonants are to be pronounced (as the typography implies, at least for reconstructed Latin of the Golden Age), ck would automatically become cc, maybe leading to musica rocca. (Remember to sound both cees.) Does anybody object to that? IacobusAmor 21:49, 16 Augusti 2006 (UTC)

Latinitas corrigenda?

Ipse nuntium "Latinitas est corrigenda" delevi, siquidem commentatiuncula haec (si liceat me ipsum laudare) sat bene scripta mihi videtur. David Morgan, 13 Mar. 2007.

Iazium

So now who'd like to attack Iazium so as to turn it into Iaz? IacobusAmor 01:11, 17 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

If we are going to do that, then why not move it to Musica Jazz? Isn't the idea to treat Jazz, Rock, etc as indeclinable english? SInce the two issues are related, maybe this should be settled before going forward with moving Musica rockica to Musica Rock.--Rafaelgarcia 01:57, 17 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

Whatever you do: musical genres are not ordinarily capitalized in English: bebop, blues, chant, concerto, folksong, habanera, hiphop, hymn, jazz, march, motet, polka, ragtime, reggae, rock, rock steady, schottische, sonata, symphony, trio etc. Exceptions are special cases; e.g., the Charleston (a proper name) and R&B (an abbreviation of rhythm and blues). IacobusAmor 02:34, 17 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

Re: "then why not move it to Musica Jazz?"—Because that formulation sounds as stilted or uninformed as jazz music would in English. It's just plain jazz. ¶ If you want a phrase of the form musica + [adjectival form of jazz], the adjective iazensis is well-attested, so you'll have Musica iazensis. IacobusAmor 02:36, 17 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

Responsibility

Rafael, now that you've taken it upon yourself to change rockica to rock in this article and its lemma, do you have the responsibility of going to the thirty-six articles that still include the term rockica and change them too? (And several articles have rockicum and rockicus.) Or will Ceylon and the others who favored this change be helping out? ::winkwink::IacobusAmor 01:16, 17 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

Sure. Also not to mention moving Categoria:Musica rockica to Categoria:Musica rock. But it should be done eh. At least now we have UV's bot to help with that.--Rafaelgarcia 01:52, 17 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

Before committing to this, see above regarding Jazz.--Rafaelgarcia 01:59, 17 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

Of course, I am willing to help, if there is consensus. I am still wondering about two points: Why lower case in rock? If we treat it as an indeclinable nomen proprium, shouldn't it get a capital R? And: Do we really need 'determinatives' like musica or, in the case of Domus Qing, domus in the title? Why not just Rock or Rock (musica), and likewise Qing or Qing (domus) or Qing (imperatores Sinici)?

Why on earth do you think rock is a proper name? See the list of genres in the section above this. See that throughout the text of en:Rock music (except of course at the start of headings & sentences, and perhaps in unedited quotes), rock is lowercased. It's a common noun, like most other genre-names. ¶ In English, one hardly ever hears rock music, as the term in most contexts has become rock—but still, rock music doesn't sound as strange as jazz music would. So no, I'd say we don't need the music in rock music, and Rock might be preferable for a title, especially as it makes a nice contrast with rock and roll, for which we might want to have a separate article, as the terms have diverged: rock and roll is best understood these days as "classic rock," the style of rock promulgated in the 1950s and early 1960s; but rock includes all sorts of genres or subgenres (e.g., arena rock, folk rock, garage rock, punk rock, rockabilly, surf rock etc.). The preponderance of interwiki titles favors just plain Rock. ¶ With Domus Qing, however, we need domus because the title of the article in English is en:Qing dynasty, and all the interwikis that I can read retain a nonparenthesized term for dynasty. The attested process of adjectival formation from proper nouns (see above) leads to Domus Qingiana, but we shouldn't be surprised if alternate Latin spellings for it turn up in missionary writings. In any case, the shade of Cicero paid me a visit overnight in a dream to tell me that he regularly pronounces Qing somewhere between [king] and [ging], just as he pronounces qat somewhere between [kat] and [gat]. ;) IacobusAmor 09:17, 17 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

On a less serious note, wouldn't musica convulsiva be an apt Latinisation of Rock'n'roll?--Ceylon 07:51, 17 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

Naturally it's not a proper name in English, but it arguably turns into one in Latin if we leave it untranslated and indeclinable. For the title, capitalisation doesn't matter anyway if you're cool with Rock.

"It arguably turns into one in Latin if we leave it untranslated and indeclinable."—That's not self-evidently true, and all responsible evidence I've seen negates it: the names of genres of music (e.g., carmen), like the names of most genres of sports (e.g., pediludium) are not proper nouns, and tradition lowercases them. Anyway, the proper noun Rock that first comes to mind is of course that of en:The Rock (entertainer). IacobusAmor 10:49, 17 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

Re. the pronunciation of qing, this might be an additional consideration for not giving it an adjective ending, because if we stick to Pinyin, we end up with a word whose first half should be pronounced according to Pinyin rules, and the latter half according to Latin rules. But as I have said there, it is a matter of taste rather than principle.

And the ghost of Cicero is dead right about qat, for Yemenis really pronounce it gat (at least they do with full cheeks). :)--Ceylon 10:03, 17 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

I suppose when it comes to music genres, unless a translation can be found in an "official" lexicon of some sort, I personally would prefer to just leave the names untranslated, as most languages do. This would simultaneously solve the problem with Jazz, because not converting the J to an I would cue you to pronounce J in Jazz as "dz" like in english.

Along the way I found that there is no single word for rock (in the sense of rocking your feet, rocking your hips, spanish mecer). Spanish mecer according to RAE comes from miscere (to mix). THere is also the related word micere (to vibrate). BUt nothing that means directly to rock something back and forth, until medieval/late latin where we have cillere (move, put in motion) (from which presumably oscillatio and vacillatio), perhaps the most direct descriptive translation would be rock and roll music = musica cillendi et volvendi.--Rafaelgarcia 15:41, 17 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

Musica rockica

Hola Rafael, why did you move this one back? I thought we had all agreed on Musica Rock? Did anybody really argue for rockica?--Ceylon 18:47, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

I originally moved the page to Musica rock because I thought there was a consensus. But Iacobus pointed out that the trouble is that if I change the M. rockica page to M. rock, I should change also all the rest for consistency's sake. This however then brings two issues. First, now I am not so sure there was a consensus after the issue of what to do with Jazz/Iazium wasn't decided. Either we should translate all of them or leave all of them untranslated. Shouldn't that be decided before moving M. rockica to rock? Second, I just don't have time to make all those moves right now.

Ergo, by moving M. rock to M. rockica and changing the lemma to suit, I was just trying to leave the page in a reasonable state until we can figure out what to do.--Rafaelgarcia 20:49, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

Gotcha. I'll do the changing then. Okay?--Ceylon 20:56, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

Well, I join you in not liking musica rockica, but people who argue for musica rock (and musica jazz, etc.) are preferring their eyes to their ears, and this preference will naturally disappoint those of us who prefer our ears to our eyes, as the speakers of many languages do when they borrow terms from other languages.* You guess that Caesar sees rock and so writes rock; I guess that Caesar hears [rak] and so writes rac. Would someone like to sponsor a séance so we can find out what he really writes? ¶ *For example, in Samoan, company becomes kamupanī, and in Hawaiian, Christmas becomes Kalīkimaka—because that's how they hear those terms, and how their script requires them to write what they hear. Are there any Latin precedents for a syllable spelled ock? Perhaps in the Middle Ages, regarding some Germanic proper name? (Even if so, that would be the eye-thing again, not the ear-thing.) IacobusAmor 21:24, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

This is a much broader issue with quite a few ramifications which we shall hardly be able to discuss in full on here. The tradition which Vicipaedia tries to continue is not directly linked to Caesar, but includes 2000 years in which not only the world that is being expressed by language has changed a good deal, but also the use of that language. Arguably since the Middle Ages - even when Latin was still frequently spoken in certain contexts - it has primarily been a written language and thus an 'eye language'. In this respect, I assume it is a far cry from Samoan. This does not stop us reading Cicero's speeches or Horace's poems or our Vicipaedia contributions out aloud (or even amuse ourselves trying to chat in Latin at fetish meetings :)). But the ear is secondary to the eye there. Imagining how Caesar would have incorporated the concept of rock into Latin is hypothetical if only because we get it from a language which also uses the Latin alphabet, whereas he would hypothetically have received it by word of mouth from the barbarians. If we argue for phonetic spellings, would not that also preclude us from writing Georgius Bush instead of Georgius Bus or the like?--Ceylon 21:49, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

I think we should decide whether changing M. rockica to M. rock, should be tied to changing M. Iazium to M. Jazz. I wouldn't be opposed to it. But I think we should decide.--Rafaelgarcia 22:21, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for moving them to Rock and Jazz (but if you prefer to include musica in the title, so be it). On the other hand, we can deal with rock now (which will involve a decent number changes in other pages) and move on to jazz later if we see fit. Every case should be decided on its own merits (e.g. for some analogous terms, we may have attested Latinizations we can use).--Ceylon 22:37, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

OK. I'll copy this discussion to the Musica rockica page. And if no one objects tonight, I'll move it back to Musica rock.--Rafaelgarcia 22:51, 25 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

The name of the article

Greetings all users on this discussion page and all in Vicipaedia. I see there have been long discussions about the name. Whatever conclusions all of you have come to about the name of the article, there is a name for "rock" and "rock music": musica rockiana ([roki'a:na]), mentioned in my Ebbe Vilborg's lexicon (second edition of 2009). Of course it doesn't sound so Latin, but it's a name anyway, and can of course be used until we have/find another better one. I have nothing against ths name, except the combination ck. So I would rather like it as musica rociana. Another name which may sound good can be musica lapidalis.

I think we change to musica rockiana. What do you consider?

Donatello (disputatio) 14:04, 25 Martii 2013 (UTC).

That's quite funny, considering the long discussions above. But such things are bound to happen -- there are more and more sources for modern Latin each year, because, as we know, it's a living language! Yes, I believe we should move, now that we have a source. What do others say? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:58, 25 Martii 2013 (UTC)

I think that the beginnig (the lemma part) of the article sorely needs purging. It's true that musica rockiana is backed up by a respectable source (Vilborg), and therefore this lemma has to stay, although -- as Donatello himself admits -- "it doesn't sound so Latin". But I wouldn't go in for changing the title, so authoritatively pleaded for by David Morgan (above). His words are really worth pondering. Neander (disputatio) 22:18, 27 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

I'm ambivalent about rock vs. rockiana, but I feel strongly that it shouldn't be lapidalis, for the same reasons given above against saxosa: rock here has no relation to geological rocks. For reference, Egger has this under "rock and roll": "saltatio: «nuta et volvere»". Lesgles (disputatio) 22:35, 27 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

In English of the present day, the genre is usually called just plain rock, with music added for pedantic purposes, or perhaps for clarity in some contexts. ¶ Cassell's doesn't have any such adjective as lapidalis ; it does have lapideus and lapidosus. (Stearn's Botanical Latin has those plus lapidescens 'becoming stone-hard, petrifying'.) Cassell's also has saxeus 'of rock, rocky, stony' and saxosus 'full of rocks; rocky'. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 01:00, 28 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

You guys are so totally off on the meaning of the term "rock"; the name comes from the english verb "to rock" as in "rock and roll"!! and has zero to do with lapides " From Wikipedia: "The phrase "rocking and rolling" originally described the movement of a ship on the ocean, but was used by the early twentieth century, both to describe the spiritual fervor of black church rituals[14] and as a sexual analogy. Various gospel, blues and swing recordings used the phrase before it became used more frequently – but still intermittently – in the 1940s, on recordings and in reviews of what became known as "rhythm and blues" music aimed at a black audience.[14] In 1942, Billboard magazine columnist Maurie Orodenker started to use the term "rock-and-roll" to describe upbeat recordings such as "Rock Me" by Sister Rosetta Tharpe.[15] By 1943, the "Rock and Roll Inn" in South Merchantville, New Jersey, was established as a music venue.[16] In 1951, Cleveland, Ohio disc jockey Alan Freed began playing this music style while popularizing the phrase to describe it.[17]"--118.169.170.239 06:20, 28 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

No, yours truly was not totally off here, having been aware of the proffered history for four or five decades, but writing to make sure that the assumed productiveness of the Latin suffix -alis did not go unchallenged. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:24, 28 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

I removed the silly "musica lapidalis" (which rather belongs to Necyclopaedia). This was the least thing to do, but there's still too much stuff in the lemma part. Rock and the pedantic musica rock are virtually the same. We hardly need "musica rockica", given that we have musica rockiana (Vilborg), though to my ears (and eyes) it sounds like "rockian music", an expression that I, for one, would be reluctant to use in English or in Latin. Neander (disputatio) 11:31, 28 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

I'll take out "musica rockica" now: it had been there a long time, but is superseded by the attested "musica rockiana". "Musica lapidalis" never had the least justification, even apart from the basic misunderstanding involved. Once we have an attested Latin name (which we have), one shouldn't add unattested Latin names to the lemma without very strong cause. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:51, 28 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

And the rest of the first paragraph (indeed, the rest of the article) wants a complete rewrite! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:23, 28 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

The first sentence looks better now, more clean. I added how to pronounce rockianus in notae. -- Donatello (disputatio) 16:12, 28 Iunii 2013 (UTC).