Disputatio:Aëroplanum

"Aeriplanum" is probably a better term. "Aero-" is too much of a Greek form, while "Aeri-" is more Latin. (both forms come from aeros and aeris, the Greek and Latin genivives for air, but aeris is the Latin)-Kedemus 01:59, 24 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

Except the Romans didn't treat aër as a fully Latin word (the ordinary accusative, in Cicero at least, is aëra, corresponding to the Greek). Even if that weren't the case, the Greek connective vowel is normally used after elements of Greek origin, whether their root word was nativized or not. —Mucius Tever 19:38, 24 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

Yet according to MWCD, aeroplane has been an attested English word since 1873. IacobusAmor 05:52, 24 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

Once again Kedemus wants us to reinvent the wheel. For the record, Kedeme, derivatives come from the dative, not genitive.--Ioscius ^(disp) 13:04, 24 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

No, not really, except by coincidential resemblance. For one, the vowel in the dative is always long, while the connective vowel isn't. —Mucius Tever 19:38, 24 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

Greetings, six years later. About "air", there is also aura (-ae, f), meaning, according to Thorus Janson (linguist and professor emeritus of Latin), "breath of air" (vindfläkt in Swedish) and "air" (luft in Swedish). There is almost always a word before it gets replaced by another word. And some older words can get another meaning. Maybe the ancient Romans used this word for air long time ago. Or maybe we know already.

Donatello (disputatio) 14:36, 8 Aprilis 2013 (UTC).

The word "aeroplanum" has still two problems:
1) The Romans didn't like so much compositions (except "-fer", "-ger" and such words). Expecially this word is a hybrid of Greek and Latin.
But the bigger problem for me is the word "planum": Only in French "plane" has sense, as it derives from "planer" = "to glide" (let's say = "moving in a flat (planus) way in the air" - cf. etymonline). Whereas in Latin "planum" hasn't got any sense: At least Cicero wouldn't understand I think, what one means by "plane thing in the air" or "clearly understandable like air".Flo.bayer (disputatio) 11:44, 16 Ianuarii 2015 (UTC)

Recte dicis, Flo.bayer, verba composita aliena esse ab indole linguae Latinae. At termini technici et scientifici exceptionem patiuntur. Quod ad "maiorem" illam difficultatem attinet, errat etymonline: constat enim aeroplanum (accuratius: āĕroplănum) a Graeco sermone adsumptum esse, ubi adiectivum ἀερόπλανος (aeroplanos) 'in aere vagans, aerivagus' antiquitus attestatum est (a quo Neograece αεροπλάνο dicitur). Itaque -planum illud non ad plānum Latinum, sed ad eandem stirpem Graecam plăn- refertur, quam in verbo plănēta habemus. Neander (disputatio) 05:42, 17 Ianuarii 2015 (UTC)

OED (2008) autem dicit: "aeroplane, < aero- comb. form + plane n.3, partly after French aéroplane (J. Pline 1855, as both adjective and noun, referring to a proposed system of aerial navigation using an airship with a more or less horizontal surface as opposed to the then usual spherical or cylindrical shapes of balloons and aircraft (and also designating an airship of this type); 1864 in sense 2; 1875 in sense 1; apparently irregularly < aéro- aero- comb. form + plan plane adj. (see below)). Pline gives no explicit explanation of the French term aéroplane , and it has been alternatively suggested that the second element is Hellenistic Greek πλάνος wandering (see plano- comb. form2). However, this is unlikely, in view of the meaning in which Pline used the word, and since he also uses the (transparently related) verb planer plane v.2 to refer to the motion of this airship." Lesgles (disputatio) 21:30, 18 Ianuarii 2015 (UTC)

Bene, etymologià quam protuli conatus sum respondere praesertim illis (supra) qui, qua ratione aero- Graecum neque aeri- Latinum verbo Latino (planum) praefixum sit, mirantur. Nunc autem video confiteorque, aeroplanum non a Graeco sed a Francogallico sermone (mediante Anglico?) in Latinum adsumptum esse. Sit ita, etymologia in rebus gestis posita (Wörter und Sachen) semper etymologiae ad mensam scriptoriam fictae praeferenda est. Neander (disputatio) 05:26, 19 Ianuarii 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. Latin is dead. You should've set up rules in the first place regarding the Latin Wikipedia if you want to write in New Latin or follow Ciceros artificial stuff. --92.74.64.34 18:10, 18 Septembris 2017 (UTC)

Revert

I have reverted the addition of "sive aeriplanum" thinking it silly, and it lacking a source.--Ioscius ^(disp) 13:05, 24 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

Not sine fonte as such, but some of that Ephemeris stuff is garbage anyway. Harrissimo 21:56, 24 Novembris 2007 (UTC).

Hey! Then again, that link does lend us ultio sithorum :D. Harrissimo 22:12, 24 Novembris 2007 (UTC).

Proposition: navis aeria

There is already existing the old word "navis aeria". It is used at least in 1768 by Bernardo Zamagna in his book of the same title (read the book here). For me this term seems to be the most logic one: First it's completely understandable (even for Cicero, I guess), as a "ship" has the same function (transport people/material over a way where you can't go by foot), but it's simply moving in the air. And second Romans usually don't like compositions (except of "-ger", "-fer" and such words.
Flo.bayer (disputatio) 11:39, 16 Ianuarii 2015 (UTC)

Macte, amice! Aside from the problem of a confusing compound like aeroplanum, an attestation from 1768 probably has historical priority and so should be the lemma. Also: is there any way of getting into the article the (charming) illustration on page xvii of Zamagna's book? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:44, 16 Ianuarii 2015 (UTC)

Navis aeria mihi quidem in mentem suggerit aeronavem, cuius inter lemmata etiam profertur, suadente Vaticano. Neander (disputatio) 15:42, 16 Ianuarii 2015 (UTC)

Itaque navem aeriam in suum locum movi, nam Zamagnae aetate nondum aeroplana inventa erant. (De etymologia aeroplani supra scripsi.) Neander (disputatio) 12:57, 17 Ianuarii 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Neander that we shouldn't conflate lighter-than-air airships/dirigibles and heavier-than-air airplanes. I added the Zamagna illustration to that page, I hope properly. Lesgles (disputatio) 21:13, 18 Ianuarii 2015 (UTC)

Six more years later

There might be something interesting in Palaestra Latina. Cfr. Eichenser, P. Caelestis (28 Aprilis 1964). "Epistolarum inter socios commercium". Palaestra Latina 188 (4): 430 : "Ergo melius dicatur aërivehiculum, aërināvis, aëriportus, sed aërodromus". Vide quoque Eichenser, P. Caelestis (28 Aprilis 1965). "Epistolare inter socios commercium". Palaestra Latina 193 (1): 23 : "Ceterum si ducis priorem partem vocabuli ‘aeroplani’ a ‘plānō’, melius dicas ‘aeriplanum’ quam ‘aeroplanum’". --Grufo (disputatio) 18:35, 6 Maii 2023 (UTC)

Addition. To support Eichenser's suggestion further, of using aëro- when the suffix is a Greek word, but aëri- when the suffx is a Latin word – and so, in this case, aëriplanum (he gives as examples aëriportus vs aërodromus) – it seems that the same approach existed already in antiquity; compare aërivagus (-vagus) with aëromantis (-μαντεία). --Grufo (disputatio) 15:55, 29 Maii 2023 (UTC)