Disputatio Usoris:Fabullus/Declinatio Latina nominum Graecorum

Paginane movenda?

Things like that should be put perhaps to a public page, I suggest. --Alex1011 07:44, 23 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

L.S. Disputatio haec nunc ad Tabernam mota est. --Fabullus 12:10, 23 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

We could merge with Translitteratio Linguae Graecae.--Ioscius ^(disp) 11:44, 25 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it can be moved to its own page Tabula declinationum Latinum nominum Graecorum similar to Tabula declinationum Latinarum? --Rafaelgarcia 16:36, 26 Iunii 2009 (UTC)

Asteroidea

In pagina Usor:Fabullus/declinatio nominum Graecorum hanc sententiam (primum a me scriptam) delevi:

asteroidea est nomen classis animalium. Si systema sequamur, nominativus et accusativus neutri pluralis esse debeant aut "asteroida" (i.e. forma Latina) aut "asteroidē" (i.e. forma Graeca Attica (ἀστεροειδῆ) litteris Latinis translata). In biologia tamen multa nomina classium animalium in -oidea exeunt, quod videtur esse forma Graeca archaica et Homerica (ἀστεροειδέα) litteris Latinis translata. Nescio quae formae in operibus biologicis Latinis adhibeantur pro casibus obliquis talium nominum. Forsitan asteroideum, asteroideibus?

Scilicet nomen asteroidea derivatur ab adiectivo "asteroideus (-ea/-eum)" primae et secundae declinationis, quod ipsum derivatum est ab adiectivo tertiae declinationis "asteroides". --Fabullus 16:14, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC

Citieus etc.

According to L&S these sometimes have 3rd decl. -eos forms. I think there are some specific references in G&L, which I can track down later if you like. I distinctly recall seeing vocatives in -eu, but I can't find a good locus classicus off hand. --Iustinus 17:16, 2 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Quid est G&L? De formis quas in tabella posui satis certus sum. Formam -eu inveneris, ut modo in pagina addidi, in Vergilii Georgicis 4.495. Si vis, exempla aut "locos classicos" cuiusque formae addere possum, aut, si me adiuveris, possumus. Multo tamen magis me capiunt formae numeri pluralis, quarum unam tantum repperi, sc. Citeos (acc.pl.). Alias tantum conieci paradigma secutus. Si tu alia exempla praebere possis, congratuler! Ceterum gaudeo te mecum deliberare de his rebus.--Fabullus 17:49, 2 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Non nego formas in tabella positas, sed aio alias formas etiam exstare. G&L est Gildersleeve and Lodge's Latin Grammar, cuius libri duo possideo exempla, quorum neutrumque invenire nunciam possum. Phy. --Iustinus 18:48, 2 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Credo te rationem tabellae meae non cepisse. In tabella sunt tres columnae. In prima omnes formas Graecas posui, in secunda ac tertia formas Latinas; in secunda formas secundae declinationis (gen.sg. -ei) invenies, in tertia formas tertiae declinationis e lingua graeca translatas (gen.sg. -eos, voc.sg. -eu, etc.) --Fabullus 19:05, 2 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Aha! Recte dicis, nam perperam verba "Latina e Graeca translitterata" intellexeram quasi "Graeca in Latinum translitterata" essent. --Iustinus 19:17, 2 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Pelagus

According to Words, the gen. plu. is Pelagum and the abl. and dat. plurals are Pelagīs. --Harrissimo 18:05, 13 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Forma pelagīs nusquam inveni in TLL, sed conici potest secundum formas numeri singularis, ac secundum exemplum cetīs semel apud Plinium repertum. Forma pelagum in TLL (apud Vitruvium necnon apud certum Cornelium Severum) tantum partes accusativi singularis implet, non genetivi pluralis. Genetivum pluralem equidem pelagorum praeferam (si non evitari potest). Quos fontes adducit hoc Words? --Fabullus 18:39, 13 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Pelagorum is also said to be the gen. plu. in words. Words doesn't state its sources. It often makes silly mistakes (like saying pelagie (rather than pelagi) is the voc. of Pelagius. However it does include pelage as acc. and nom. plural in for this pelagus so I think it has not just gone with the flow and made errors. It must have a reliable source. After all, It's going to take a lot of trawling to find versions such as these in classical texts. --Harrissimo 19:12, 13 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

'Thesis' genetivus?

Ovid. Epist. ex Ponto 3.2.52: 'Fama refert illic signum caeleste fuisse, / quoque minus dubites, stat basis orba dea'; Hanc citationem, quam prius putabam exemplum genetivi in -is exeuntis, delevi, quia nunc opinor id esse exemplum nominativi. --Fabullus 05:12, 15 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

lexicon

Ubi sunt verba sicut "lexicon"? --Alex1011 20:34, 30 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Ignosce, nunc primum animadverto te hic aliquid rogavisse. Vocabula secundae declinationis nondum inclusi, quia sunt, ut mihi quidem videtur, perfacilia. Plenitudinis tamen gratia haec quoque includam, tempore dato. Interdum quod scire vis, invenire potes in pagina de Translitteratione Linguae Graecae ab amico Iustino instituta. --Fabullus 14:45, 13 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Automatia

Apud Nepotem invenis: automatia (nom.), automatias (gen.). Qui sunt ceteri casus? --Alex1011 22:39, 6 Martii 2008 (UTC)

Haec sunt formae Graecae. Saepissime tamen nomina Graeca feminina in -a exeuntia declinantur omnino Latine.

nom. automatia

gen. automatias sive automatiae

dat. automatiae

acc. automatian sive automatiam

abl. automatia

-Fabullus 06:15, 7 Martii 2008 (UTC)

Multas gratias ago. --Alex1011 08:47, 7 Martii 2008 (UTC)

Quaestiones

Sorry, my Latin is not as good as yours, I am still studying, igitur Anglice scribam. First of all, the page is great and should be put into public usage, and I disagree it makes sense to merge it with "Translitteratio" as the topic of declension of Greek nouns is too broad and too important to be lost in some footnotes. Thanks for a lot of good info there, but I have some queries:

1. -ē feminine declension is missing altogether
2. "Persēs" as you quote is not "a Persian" (that word is a casual "Persa"), but a heroic forefather of all Persians, .i. the mythical son of Perseus and Andromeda, thus its declension goes the same way as Anchīsēs, comparison with Getēs and Scythēs (re abl. for example) is misleading
3. What are your sources for ablative of nouns like sophistēs? The sources I have scouted through (like various grammars) suggest -ā there as the main ending. So the rule appears following - generic nouns (including demonyms in -tēs) end in -ā in ablative, whereas personal names can have -ā (if fully Latinized like Anchīses = Anchīsa, abl. Anchīsā) or -e if following 3rd declension.
4. Patronyms (-idēs, -adēs) and demonyms (-itēs) are between 1st and 3rd declension. Thus Alcidēs (son of Alcaeus) can be both Alcidae and Alcidis in gen. The practical implication of this is that in ablative forms like Alcide, Achate etc have a short -e (3rd declension) or a long -ā following 1st declension. Thus "Alcidē" is a clear mistake. It is of note that Greek does not have ablative, so the only permissable deviation from expected ablative is found in (undescribed) -ē feminine nouns that end in -ē like Niobē (although Niobā, Pēnelopā are also options).
5. "Achaemenidēs" as you quote is not a personal name proper (although it was one of Odysseus' crew), but is a patronym based on Achaemenēs, thus its declension should be treated with other patronyms, not in personal name type.

77.241.200.14 14:30, 12 Martii 2008 (UTC)

Dear unknown user, I am very happy that my page, even in its present far from perfect state, is being noticed and appreciated. It has been some wile since I last worked on it because I have been engaged in another grand project, concerning Latin diminutives. Before I am going to answer your questions, I first want to invite you to open an account and assume an identity of your own. It is so much more pleasant to converse with someone with a name, even an assumed one, than with a number. Besides the number changes with the machine you use, but - as long as you log in - the name stays. Okay, your questions:

1. I am planning to add feminine first declension nouns in -ē some time, if only to show that in Latin the name 'Hermione' takes the first declension, not the third as Peter Needham seems to think!
2. I am not at all satisfied with the section on first declension masculine names and nouns in -es. I am planning a major overhaul which will be shorter, but better documented, with parallels for each ending.
3. I used to search for parallels in a data-base called PHI0007 (or something like that) containing every edited Latin text up to 200 AD. However, since my hard disk crashed I can't use that one any more, and it will take some time before I will get a new copy. In the mean time I can say that I don't think the ablative in -e of first declension nouns follows the third declension. I am sure it is a long -e (for which I hope to be able to cite some metrical text) and not short -e like in third declension words. It may be that the Romans formed this form by analogy: if nom. -ās has abl. -ā, then nom -ēs should have -ē. It is also possible that abl -ē is fashioned after the Greek 'dative' -ῃ (note that in Roman times 'iota subscriptum' was no longer pronounced), which is the closest approximation of Latin ablative.
4. Strictly speaking Achaemenides is a patronym, but so is Euripides which however like most other Greek personal names in -es is transferred to the 3rd declension. I think the Romans looked at the actual use of a name rather than its original use, when deciding how to decline it. I think Achaemenides retains 1st declension not because it is a patronym but because for some reason poets prefer to retain 1st declension even in the case of personal names.

I hope I have answered your questions to your satisfaction. I am looking forward to your views. --Fabullus 19:44, 13 Martii 2008 (UTC)

Huiusce paginae opera

This really is a fabulous (or is it Fabullous?) piece of work. Have you had any luck recovering your database? It would, afterall, be wonderful if you could put on the finishing touches and cut it loose. (Then again, I haven't worked on my translator's guide in years, so I'm one to talk....) --Iustinus 20:42, 7 Decembris 2008 (UTC)

Callisto

A section is wanted for the Callisto, Io, Stheno class of names. --Iustinus 22:10, 13 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Nom. Īō; Gen. Īūs; Dat. Īō; Acc. Īō, Īōn; Abl. Īō (sive -ō -ōnis) --Iustinus (disputatio) 19:29, 24 Iulii 2012 (UTC)

Terentius asseverat illam figuram quae est "Ion" nusquam lingua Latina attestari --Iustinus (disputatio) 17:56, 4 Septembris 2012 (UTC)