Disputatio:Reges Franciae

Nomines in Francia

Hi Andrew Dalby, I've noticed you changed nearly all the names of French kings and presidents, just because they were in Latine. I'd like to know if we have to use Latine names or native French ones. Actually, it's not always easy to decline it when we don't have the first name. E.g. in the article about Franciscus Mitterrand, we used to read  : "Postea aliquot menses pro imperio Petani laboravit". How are we supposed to decline Pétain if we change his name. Do we have to write "pro imperio Philippi Petain", "pro imperio Philippi Pétain" (with an accent , as in French), "pro imperio P. Petain", "pro imperio P. Petani", "pro imperio Petani", "pro imperio Philippe Petain",...

We need to have a strict rule to follow, so that we can't do anymore as we want, each with its own rules... Dura lex sed (necessaria) lex !

Ricardus

J'ai remarqué que certains d'entre nous changent systématiquement les noms de famille un peu trop "latinisés" pour retrouver le nom orginal en français, par exemple. Je souhaiterais savoir s'il vaut mieux utiliser le nom en français ou en latin. En effet,ce n'est pas toujours facile de décliner un nom français. Par exemple, dans l'article concernant Franciscus Miterrand, on pouvait lire : "Postea aliquot menses pro imperio Petani laboravit". Comment devrions-nous décliner, ou plutôt traduie, le noom de Philippe Pétain dans cette phrase: devons nous mettre "pro imperio Philippi Petain", "pro imperio Philippi Pétain" (avec ces accents qui nous sont chers, à nous français mais sont un véritable casse-tête pour les non-francophones ou les résidents à l'étranger qui n'ont pas accès à un clavier français), "pro imperio P. Petain", "pro imperio P. Petani", "pro imperio Petani", "pro imperio Philippe Petain",...

Nous devons avoir des règles strictes à appliquer, pour qu'on ne puisse plus rien faire comme on en a envie, chacun avec ses propres règles. Dura lex sed (necessaria) lex !

Ricardus

Ricarde, I'm very glad you have added the names of presidents between 1871 and 1944. It's so good to have that gap filled!

Actually I did two quite different things. First, I made the names of the kings agree with the stub articles that Usor:Massimo Macconi has written. I only noticed today that although he has completed the kings/emperors all the way from Hugo Capetius to Napoleo III, most of them were not showing up blue on this list because the names were different. So, as regards the kings, the choice of names is Massimo's, not mine. (But I think they are OK.)

Then I changed the names of the presidents from 1959 to 2007, as you say: I kept the forenames (prénoms) Latin and made the surnames (noms) French. This is the rule that is normally followed for modern people in Vicipaedia: to use the native surname unless there is existing evidence for a Latin form of the name. There has been some discussion of it in the Taberna in the last few months -- I haven't yet found it -- but one place where it is clearly set out is here (Usor:Iustinus/Translator's Guide#Coining New Names): "The rule generally used by Latinists today is to Latinize the personal name (if possible), but to leave the family name unchanged and indeclinable. As a rule, this method should be adhered to for persons of the modern era." What's your view about this? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:07, 7 Maii 2007 (UTC)

[Added a moment later:] Also, there was a very long discussion at Disputatio:Octavius Mirbeau ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:11, 7 Maii 2007 (UTC)

If that's the rule, then, there's no problem for me, I'll apply it without asking any more question. My point just was that I didn't know how to do. For the moment, that's OK, I'll read what's written in the taberna. Thanks a lot for having answered so rapidly. Ricardus

Francia Vichiana

Il est vrai que le nom latin de Vichy est Aquae Calidae; je crois quand même que notre titre pour l'état Vichienne doit être Francia Vichiana. Francia Aquarum Calidarum serait ridicule, n'est-ce pas? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:03, 28 Iunii 2007 (UTC)