Disputatio:Kansanopolis

Nomen

catholic-hierarchy.org gives Kansanopolitanus, a name that presumably can be applied to both the KS and MO cities. StevenJ81 (disputatio) 17:48, 4 Decembris 2015 (UTC)

I agree, and of course eventually we need a page on the larger city in Missouri. Lesgles (disputatio) 18:02, 4 Decembris 2015 (UTC)

It also gives Sanctus Josephus, for which the one in California is Iosephopolis. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:07, 4 Decembris 2015 (UTC)

1. I suppose one question is: Wouldn't we consider Catholic diocesan names in Latin as being about as definitive a source as exists, especially for places far from the territory of the Roman Empire?

Some Vicipaedian terms come from usage well-established at the Conventiculum Lexingtoniense and other gatherings. You'd have to ask old-timers, such as Ioscius and Iustinus. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:41, 4 Decembris 2015 (UTC)

Iustinus and Ioscius are rarely here these days, unluckily. But anyway there's nothing in our policies about appealing to old-timers. We rely on published sources, like Wikipedias in general. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:11, 4 Ianuarii 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but those old-timers might have special knowledge of published sources, especially those printed in small quantities, and they might even be retaining classroom handouts published by the edifying pen of the immortal Terentius. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 17:35, 4 Ianuarii 2016 (UTC)

2. Beyond that: If one of you will move the page to Kansanopolitanus (Kansia), and decline that name correctly throughout, I'll then add the sources—which should then be enough to liberate this page from non-stipula status. (As for St. Joseph ... one thing at a time, eh?) StevenJ81 (disputatio) 18:17, 4 Decembris 2015 (UTC)

The noun behind the adjective Kansanopolitanus would presumably be Kansanopolis, but the formation seems irregular if the noun behind that noun is Kansia (so why not Kansiopolis?). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:37, 4 Decembris 2015 (UTC)

Well, we have a source for Kansanopolis, so better to modify the name Kansas to accommodate, no? Kansia doesn't have a source listed. StevenJ81 (disputatio) 18:48, 4 Decembris 2015 (UTC)

But if, as you say, these names are well established from sources like Conventiculum Lexingtoniense, we should footnote those. Iustinus, any thoughts? StevenJ81 (disputatio) 18:51, 4 Decembris 2015 (UTC)

IIRC, Traupman's conversational Latin book attests a list of states and big cities, but I lent my copy out and it hasn't come back. Maybe Ioscius or Iustinus can help with that sort of thing. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:56, 4 Decembris 2015 (UTC)

As Iacobus says above, the noun behind Kansanopolitanus would presumably be Kansanopolis. In fact it can't be anything else. Anyway, Google tells me that Graesse confirms this name directly. So we have sources and I have moved the page. Hasty, though, because I see that the attestations are all for Kansas City, Missouri. Indeed, that's where I thought I was when I came here ... I am not sure whether we can stretch the attested name across the river. Was I right or wrong to move? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:34, 4 Ianuarii 2016 (UTC)

It was fine to move. See catholic-hierarchy.org for the Archdiocese of Kansas City in Kansas: Archidioecesis Kansanopolitana in Kansas. StevenJ81 (disputatio) 17:49, 4 Ianuarii 2016 (UTC)

Oh, thank goodness for that!

Now that's an interesting form, because it gives us an unexpected "Kansas" (indecl.) for the name of the state. Other Google sources seem to confirm it, too. On the other hand, searching "Kansanopolitana in Kansa" and "Kansanopolitana Kansae", which a Latinist might have expected, gives no result. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:07, 4 Ianuarii 2016 (UTC)

Interesting. In other geographic locations, does Latin handle declension of regions or subnational units differently from the way it handles nations or cities?

I added the sources for both Kansas Cities here. Truthfully, someone should probably add the other article. And more: since at most only one of these articles can actually be called Kansanopolis, objectively that ought to be the one about the Missouri city, which is the larger one and the metropolitan hub. So then what would you call this article? StevenJ81 (disputatio) 18:23, 4 Ianuarii 2016 (UTC)

Both are called Kansas City in English. Why not in Latin also? One would be Kansanopolis (Kansia); the other, Kansanopolis (Missuria). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:31, 4 Ianuarii 2016 (UTC)

We have a source for Kansanopolis in Kansas; or we can follow our disambiguation practice and call it Kansanopolis (Kansas). There's little to choose. [Remember we don't seem have a source for "Kansia".]

No, no grammatical rule explains the Vatican's "Kansas" form: the word is simply being treated as indeclinable. Compare St John's Newfoundland, "Archidioecesis Sancti Ioannis Terrae Novae" (genetive; nominative is "Terra Nova"). The second form I tried to confirm above, "Kansanopolitana Kansae", would be parallel to that. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:36, 4 Ianuarii 2016 (UTC)

I found a copy of Traupman's Conversational Latin. On page 208, he gives:

Kansas Cansia, -ae, f; (cap) Topeka Topeca, -ae, f; Kansas City Cansiopolis -is f; adj Cansianus -a -um

Of course we don't have to choose those, but there they are! Lesgles (disputatio) 19:00, 4 Ianuarii 2016 (UTC)

Great. We'd maybe choose "Cansia" 1st decl. instead of "Kansas" indecl. I would, anyway. As for Kansanopolis, being a diocesan city and all, I'd probably go with the Vatican. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:05, 4 Ianuarii 2016 (UTC)

Not that I'm such an expert, but with respect to the two cities, I would too, especially given that there are actually two diocesan seats, along with Graesse to support them.

On enwiki, "Kansas City" (plain) redirects to "Kansas City metropolitan area". Here, "Kansanopolis" (plain) either needs to be a disambiguation page or a redirect to the Missouri city (which would then need a hatnote).

With respect to the state, I suppose we could also take a fusion of Traupman and the Vatican to justify "Kansia" 1st decl. That's probably unacceptable as OR per se, but enough to justify a redirect in any event. StevenJ81 (disputatio) 19:15, 4 Ianuarii 2016 (UTC)

Concerning the state, who the heck knows? The titular see of Sault Ste. Marie, MI, is Marianopolitanus in Michigania. The diocese of Rockville Center, NY is Dioecesis Petropolitana in Insula Longa. I'm not sure there's always consistency.

Since the official Vatican diocesan names do represent at least nominal current, living Latin use, the city names probably deserve deference compared to a constructed name. But since the Vatican only rarely includes regional names, and in those cases the regional name is only a qualifier to the city name, I'm not sure the regional (state) names deserve the same level of deference. StevenJ81 (disputatio) 19:22, 4 Ianuarii 2016 (UTC)