Disputatio:Universitas Libera Bruxellensis (ULB)
I intend to move this to "Université libre de Bruxelles", which is the title adopted by the vast majority of Wikipedias (in line with Belgian usage) in order to distinguish it from the "Vrije Universiteit Brussel" (which has exactly the same translation). This page then should become a disambiguation page once I've created "Vrije Universiteit Brussel" as well. Sigur (disputatio) 21:08, 15 Maii 2019 (UTC)
- The official Latin name in Belgian usage appears to be "Universitas Bruxellensis" (see en:File:Université libre de Bruxelles seal.svg). If no other institution claims the same Latin name, there is a strong reason to make this our choice, and usage on other Wikipedias would not be relevant (except where the university has an official name in those other languages). Actually I said this a while back at Disputatio:Bruxellae (regio), but I didn't do anything about it! I will now cite it in the first sentence, but I'm not claiming that it is the answer. It could well be said that "Universitas Bruxellensis", however official it may be, is not sufficiently clear or distinctive. In such a case we would normally add a disambiguating term in parentheses. What would it be? One might argue for "(Francogallica)" i.e. French-language; one might argue for "(Université libre de Bruxelles)" ... That's as far as my thoughts have reached. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:41, 16 Maii 2019 (UTC)
- I see that according to en:wiki the official name of VUB is also "Universitas Bruxellensis". No source is cited, and I haven't searched further, but it might well be true :) If it is true, it wouldn't be the first such case in the world, and we would have to disambiguate both pagenames. Even then, since there are Latin names, we should use them: this is Latin here. Well, a third disambiguation option, briefer than any other and (I rather suspect) easily understood in the streets of Brussels, is "Universitas Bruxellensis (ULB)" and "Universitas Bruxellensis (VUB)". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:05, 16 Maii 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that the seal makes it "official", but arguably it's as close to "official" as one can get. I would however indeed object that it is not distinctive enough. Given the sensitivity of such issues in Belgium "Francogallica" isn't good; make it "Francophona" or if that's too much of a neologism "de lingua Francogallica". However "ULB" seems perfectly OK to me as well - and much shorter. For the VUB, I did search for a Latin name without finding one, but that's no proof. We don't necessarily have to treat both universities in parallel, though, as long as we avoid ambiguities. Sigur (disputatio) 13:23, 16 Maii 2019 (UTC)
- Actually, for the VUB, I'm tempted to just ask them. Original research, you might say, but then it's just to help us decide between two options we consider valid in the first place, isn't it? Sigur (disputatio) 14:18, 16 Maii 2019 (UTC)
- It would be original research ... but if they happen to show you a document bearing their Latin name, we can cite the document and all will be well!
- For the record, I can now show that the parent institution (preceding the division of 1969) called itself in an official Latin document "Universitas Bruxellensis" (in the text) and "Universitatis Liberae Bruxellensis curatores professores alumni" (in the heading). See the text here. This book is a lovely, lovely source for the names of universities already existing in 1884.
- The logic of the longer name is that "universitas" means the community, so you need to specify of whom the community consists ... but by the 19th century only the Latinists remembered that. Everybody else thought that "universitas" meant a teaching institution, and so, of course, it does :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:18, 16 Maii 2019 (UTC)
- Great! Your source makes me think that we should stick to "Universitas Libera Bruxellensis" for both institutions and just add "ULB" and "VUB". The source shows that one version was indeed "Universitas Libera Bruxellensis" and none of the two have ever changed their name, they both continued their old name, just one in French and the other in Dutch. And between "Universitas Bruxellensis" and "Universitas Libera Bruxellensis", the latter is closer to the vernaculars. Sigur (disputatio) 16:47, 16 Maii 2019 (UTC)
- What is a free university? One where students don't pay for their tuition? (Do they get free room & board too?) Be sure to explain this in the article, especially since Vicipaedia doesn't yet have an article telling us what an universitas libera might be. Other kinds of universities for which articles are in place or needed include universitas civica (funded by a state), universitas nationalis (run by a national government), universitas pontificalis (authorized by the supreme pontiff), universitas privata (run by nonstate actors), universitas publica (funded by the state), and universitas investigatoria? (committed to research as a central part of its mission). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 17:30, 16 Maii 2019 (UTC)
- The names "Universitas Libera Bruxellensis (ULB)" and "Universitas Libera Bruxellensis (VUB)" seem to raise no objection, so I guess we could move to these? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:43, 17 Maii 2019 (UTC)
- What is a free university? One where students don't pay for their tuition? (Do they get free room & board too?) Be sure to explain this in the article, especially since Vicipaedia doesn't yet have an article telling us what an universitas libera might be. Other kinds of universities for which articles are in place or needed include universitas civica (funded by a state), universitas nationalis (run by a national government), universitas pontificalis (authorized by the supreme pontiff), universitas privata (run by nonstate actors), universitas publica (funded by the state), and universitas investigatoria? (committed to research as a central part of its mission). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 17:30, 16 Maii 2019 (UTC)
- Great! Your source makes me think that we should stick to "Universitas Libera Bruxellensis" for both institutions and just add "ULB" and "VUB". The source shows that one version was indeed "Universitas Libera Bruxellensis" and none of the two have ever changed their name, they both continued their old name, just one in French and the other in Dutch. And between "Universitas Bruxellensis" and "Universitas Libera Bruxellensis", the latter is closer to the vernaculars. Sigur (disputatio) 16:47, 16 Maii 2019 (UTC)
- Actually, for the VUB, I'm tempted to just ask them. Original research, you might say, but then it's just to help us decide between two options we consider valid in the first place, isn't it? Sigur (disputatio) 14:18, 16 Maii 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that the seal makes it "official", but arguably it's as close to "official" as one can get. I would however indeed object that it is not distinctive enough. Given the sensitivity of such issues in Belgium "Francogallica" isn't good; make it "Francophona" or if that's too much of a neologism "de lingua Francogallica". However "ULB" seems perfectly OK to me as well - and much shorter. For the VUB, I did search for a Latin name without finding one, but that's no proof. We don't necessarily have to treat both universities in parallel, though, as long as we avoid ambiguities. Sigur (disputatio) 13:23, 16 Maii 2019 (UTC)
- I see that according to en:wiki the official name of VUB is also "Universitas Bruxellensis". No source is cited, and I haven't searched further, but it might well be true :) If it is true, it wouldn't be the first such case in the world, and we would have to disambiguate both pagenames. Even then, since there are Latin names, we should use them: this is Latin here. Well, a third disambiguation option, briefer than any other and (I rather suspect) easily understood in the streets of Brussels, is "Universitas Bruxellensis (ULB)" and "Universitas Bruxellensis (VUB)". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:05, 16 Maii 2019 (UTC)
I'll do that tonight. Sigur (disputatio) 14:11, 17 Maii 2019 (UTC)