Disputatio:Insula Sancti Dionysii (urbs Sequanae et Sancti Dionysii)

Disputationem, quae motum paginae praecedit, hic moveo. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:41, 24 Februarii 2023 (UTC)

Movenda

Toponyma sicut "Sanctus Dionysius Insulanus" haud videmus: est potius descriptio hominis (masculini), Saint Denis habitant d'une ile. Non necesse est nomen fingere quia reperitur in documentis pluribus, quae repperi per Google quando "Insula S. Dionysii" [sic] verbatim quaesivi. Paginam movendam suadeo. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:21, 24 Februarii 2023 (UTC)

l'Île-Saint-Denis (cum - -) urbs est et île Saint-Denis insula est. Orthographia Gallica differentiam notat. Urbs "nuper" creatio est (et insula tota etiam)

Insula Sancti Dionissi et Insula Sancti Dionysii sunt distincta, unde propositum est Sanctus Dionysuos Insulanus.

Documentum tibi provisum ostendit paroeciam, non civitatem. Praeter, mentionem "civitatis Sancti-Denis", Sanctus Martinus et al ...except Sanctus Dionysius... ^^ Polysyndète (disputatio) 15:19, 24 Februarii 2023 (UTC)

Gratias ago propter responsum. Non bene intellego:

1. dicis "Insula Sancti Dionissi et Insula Sancti Dionysii sunt distincta": an de "Insula Sancti Dionissi" loquimur? Ubi est?
2. Dicis "Documentum tibi provisum ostendit paroeciam, non civitatem": per "civitatem" fortasse "commune" dicere vis. Bene, sed communia hodierna loco paroeciarum antiquarum saepissime stant, easdem oppida vel urbes continentes, eadem nomina Francogallica habentes. Si nomina Latina paroeciarum ante-revolutionarium reiicis, ubi nomina Latina reperies?
3. Dicis "mentionem 'civitatis Sancti-Denis', Sanctus Martinus et al ...except Sanctus Dionysius... ^^ " An aliquid omisisti? Je ne comprends pas cette phrase. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:46, 24 Februarii 2023 (UTC)

à mon avis il n'y a pas que ça que tu ne comprends pas dans la vie Polysyndète (disputatio) 16:58, 24 Februarii 2023 (UTC)

Votre seigneurie est au courant que Saitn Densi est aussi le nom d'une ville ? et "Insulaire" ça ne veut pas dire "habitant d'une île", ça veut dire "relatif à une île" Sanctud Dionysius inulanus, ça veut dire "Saint-Denis de l'île" qui est donc par rapport à Saint-Denis (pas de l'île)... et ça permet de montrer que c'est une ville et pas l'île si l'administration française a décidé de mettre des tirets à la ville l'Île-Saint-Denis, ce n'est pas pour faire joli. ça me gave de devoir donner des explications aussi élémentaires. Polysyndète (disputatio) 11:56, 26 Februarii 2023 (UTC)

Nomina

Insula Sanctii Dionysii is a poorly translated version to render l'ïle-Saint-Denis. The original hyphenation indicates this is the official name of a town, and is used to make the difference from Île Saint-Denis, which is the isle on which the town is settled. Now the Latin "Insula Sancti Dionysiii" is the same to both town and island, not to mention how weird and confusing calling a city "insula". This is why I offered Sanctus Dionysius Insulanus, which was making it different enough from "Sanctus Dionysius/ville de Saint-Denis" and "Insula Sancti Dionysii/Saint Denis island" without betraying the meaning. Traduttore, traditore...

I acknowledge the document proposed to justify the Insula name but this is a list of parrish names, which doesn't necessarily reflect the name of a town, (you just need to read the Saint-Denis Paroisse to see the Latin name for Saint-Denis is... "Saint Martin"!) So nobody ever says they chose the name of the island for their paroisse instead. Anyway, I'm a newcomer around so I yield to the long-time VIPs... Polysyndète (disputatio) 18:30, 24 Februarii 2023 (UTC)

Thanks -- gratias tibi ago --

Proposui Insula Sancti Dionysii (commune) -- quo brevius, eo melius, mea mente -- sed parenthesim longiorem accipio. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:47, 24 Februarii 2023 (UTC)

Si tu ne vois pas qu'il y a un problème à appeler une île Insula Dancti Fionysii et une ville "Insula Sancti Dionysii" sans retraduire la différence que fait le français entre L'Île-Saint-Denis et l'île Saint denis, je ne peux rien pour toi. En attendant si mon pays a décidé de marquer la nuance dans le nom, je ne vois pas pourquoi on ne le ferait pas dans le latin, d'où ma proposition.

De plus,je me demande pourquoi tu n'as jamais traduit ces villes et que tu attendes que je le fasse, des années plus tard, pour venir ramener ta bouche ! Moi ce que je te propose, c'est que tu t'occupes de ta famille royale décadente et du "Suppléant" et que tu me laisses traduire les noms de mon département, dans mon pays, de ma propre langue. Have a cuppa and get lost! Polysyndète (disputatio) 11:44, 26 Februarii 2023 (UTC)

Vide s.t.p. id quod in pagina disputationis tua nuper scripsi. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:31, 26 Februarii 2023 (UTC)

As Polysyndète indicates, French usage—apparently distinguishing L'Île-Saint et l'île Saint (differing in capitalization & hyphenization)—could be telling us important information, and it should be respected. Accordingly, mos vicipaedianus, which uses parentheses to differentiate identical lemmata, would probably give us Dionysius (sanctus) for the saint (with a redirect from Sanctus Dionysius), Sanctus Dionysius (commune) for the commune, and Sanctus Dionysius (insula) for the island. That typographic distinction would seem to solve the problem—except that Sanctus Dionysius (commune) is far too general, as Belgium has four communes so named, Québec has four such municipalités, and France has sixty such communes—and all these Saint Dennises need to be distinguished in their titles. (Additionally, Switzerland has two such place-names, and Italy has one.) ¶ The title of the page for the commune in question in the French wikipedia is L'Île-Saint-Denis, and the locality is defined as "une commune française située dans le département de la Seine-Saint-Denis, dont le territoire correspond parfaitement à celui d'une île fluviale de la Seine, l'Île Saint-Denis." This evidently differs from Saint-Denis (Seine-Saint-Denis), given the lemma Saint-Denis and defined as "une commune française limitrophe de Paris, située au nord de la capitale, dans le département de la Seine-Saint-Denis, dont elle est sous-préfecture, en région Île-de-France." ¶ If Cassell's is to be believed, insulanus (as used by Cicero) is only a noun, and so Sanctus Dionysius insulanus would be interpreted in English as 'Saint Dennis the Islander'. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:16, 26 Februarii 2023 (UTC)

Consentio, Iacobe. Sunt certe loci plures qui nomen "Sanctus Dionysius" habent.

Nisi erravi, hic non de commune Saint-Denis ab initio locuti sumus, sed de commune L'Île-Saint-Denis tantum. Hoc commune debemus quoquomodo distinguere ab insula ubi stat. Id quod per motum paginae iam factum effecimus, mea mente.

De re principali: "Sanctus Dionysius Insulanus" Latine sonat Saint Denis the islander Anglice, Saint Denis habitant d'une île Francogallice. Ergo haec locutio aegre nomen urbis vel communis esse potest. Nomen aliud proposui. Paginam non movi: hanc rem Polysyndète fecit. Si quis melius nomen Latinum proponere potest, valde bene! Sed fontem nominis a me propositi rite citavi, videlicet, indicem cartulariorum monasterii S. Dionysii, ubi, inter alia toponyma, habemus Francogallice et Latine, verbatim, "Ile-S.-Denis: Insula S. Dionysii". Per regulas nostras, si nomen fonte confirmatum reicere volumus, oportet fontem novi nominis citare.

Qua ratione fontem a me citatam, a Polysyndète e pagina deletam, pro tempore restitui ne citationem perdamus. Disputatione perfecta, prima sententia rescribi potest. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:58, 26 Februarii 2023 (UTC)

Hyphena (Hyphens, Traits d'union)

Iacobe, I should explain this issue: it's familiar to Polysyndète and to me, but (as I see from your question) not to you. The rules for hyphens (traits d'union) are quite special in French official orthography, and a bit controversial too. Hence there is a very long explanation on the French Wikipedia. For the particular case of geographical names and those of administrative units, i.e. this present case, see fr:Trait d'union#Noms des entités politiques et administratives. The case we are talking about is actually given as an example, among others, in that subsection: it says:

la commune de L'Île-Saint-Denis et l'île Saint-Denis qui donne son nom à la commune

So: the name of Saint Denis, the saint, is not hyphenated, but when he gives his name to the island, his name is then hyphenated Saint-Denis. The full name of the island is not hyphenated, but when the island gives its name to the commune, the island's full name, now the name of the commune, is hyphenated. Believe me, if you edit a commune's news bulletin, as I do, you get used to applying this rule. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:07, 27 Februarii 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. It's what I'd do in English if I could get away with it, but they won't let me. It works with lowercased phrases too (life insurance but life-insurance policies), but many presses don't allow even that, accepting only such phrases involving a participle (life-insuring choices). At least we still have the New-York Historical Society. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:53, 27 Februarii 2023 (UTC)

Why yes, I never thought of it that way, but that name follows an identical rule. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:46, 27 Februarii 2023 (UTC)