Disputatio:Organizatio re publica vacans

For the sake of our reputation I had to change the title "Non Gubernalis Organizatio" which gives no idea of what the organisation is supposed to be about. Compatibility with the English abbreviation NGO is scarcely such an asset that justifies macaronicisms. "Gubernalis" looks like being derived from "gubernum" 'rudder'. Notice that "res publica" has many context dependent meanings, not just 'republic'. I also added {{L-1}}, but unfortunately I haven't got the time to explicate all the details. Perhaps some friendly soul will take the time ... Neander (disputatio) 09:55, 16 Iulii 2014 (UTC)

Ok Neander. --Jondel (disputatio) 01:05, 17 Iulii 2014 (UTC)

Gubernalis

Please keep in mind that these orginization are highly ^involved^ with governments hence variations of the word 'government ' tend to be included in the name and translations.--Jondel (disputatio) 01:05, 17 Iulii 2014 (UTC)

Gubernaclum

How about gubernaclum('government' Collins gem Latin Dictionary p157)?--Jondel (disputatio) 01:13, 17 Iulii 2014 (UTC)

Well, gubernaculum would certainly be better, but notice that its primary meaning is still 'rudder'. Metaphorically — given that "res publica" is a "navis" (as Cicero has it in his speech pro Sestio §45) — gubernaculum may mean 'government', but (1) always in plural; (2) textually nearly always in the phrase "gubernacula rei publicae" or "gubernacula patriae". ¶ You have certainly read the fine translation, by Laurentianus, of the UN text. He proposes to translate "non-governmental organization" as "collegium privatum". Now, the question to be discussed is, whether everything that is non-governmental is private, or not. Neander (disputatio) 22:29, 17 Iulii 2014 (UTC)

I won't be opposing your (and Laurentius') moves, but let me just give 2 more examples from the Smith and Lockwood Latin-English dictionary:gubernacula rei publicae tractare "Cic";gubernacula rei publicae sedere "Cic";helm is used here metaphoricaly of course. --Jondel (disputatio) 14:39, 19 Iulii 2014 (UTC)

Probe dixisti, Neander! Num privatum melius sit, nunc ipse in dubium voco. Illae "NGOes" utique non sustinentur ab ipsa re publica, et in tantum privatae potius sint appellandae. E contra nihil moverent, nisi publice agerent. Fortasse res haeret in specie rei publicae post Romanorum tempora mutata. Nos eidem nomini alium sensum supponimus, et quidem talem, ut multum distet inter cives et rem publicam. An collegium civile ...? Incertus sum. Cicero vel quisque alius sui aevi haud facile videret, quid sibi vellet hoc nomen.
Occurrit nunc, quod illae corporationes temporum medii aevi ... ehem ... aut corpora, aut universitates, aut plerumque collegia (!), dicebantur. Quod si placebit "civis" sensum hodiernum accipere pro re huius temporis, collegium civile certe non erit optionum pessima. Quid censetis? Laurentianus (disputatio) 00:06, 18 Iulii 2014 (UTC)

Ego quoque de collegio civili cogitabam sed, cum aliae Wikipediae serviliter "gubernamenti" mentionem facerent, arbitratus fortasse aliquid referre, utrum de collegio ab rei publicae administratoribus libero an de variis rebus a civibus tantum susceptis ageretur, consilium cepi "organizationem" — sit venia verbo ... :–) — ab re publica vacuam (si tales exstant) proponere. At nescio. Tempora mutata probe monuisti. Omnino arduum est alienas administrationes publicas Latine aut quavis alia lingua describere. Per me licet de collegio civili loqui, namque ego non magnam inter "civile" et "ab re publica" (sive a "gubernameto") liberum" differentiam video. Sed forsitan rem non satis perspexerim. Neander (disputatio) 09:01, 18 Iulii 2014 (UTC)

Ita licet mihi dicam ponamus "gubernamenti" (quamquam serviliter). Callidus, autem, latine sit polliceri non possum. Solum ne sit alienus hodiernus velim. Fors, in modo usandi, erravi sed in principio, non facile acceptus est. Fateor moliri me latine et vos rogem me patiaris, amici.--Jondel (disputatio) 09:40, 18 Iulii 2014 (UTC)

Gratias vobis habeo pro consiliis communicatis maximas. Collegium civile etiam nunc placet, praesertim cum Lacus ille Curtius, cuius notitiam Jondelio me debere fateor, huic suffragari videtur. Pro certo habeo studium litterarum iuridicarum et politicarum etiam modernorum (velut Grotii) nobis ad rem amplius disputandam usui fore.
Quae cetera protulisti, mi Jondelie, parum interpretari posse videor. Maybe you better drop Latin and switch to English. Valete! Laurentianus (disputatio) 21:09, 18 Iulii 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Laurentius. If you would be responding and allowing me to participate more than I would be using English. But I will not cease latin studies nor participation in the Latin wikipedia.--Jondel (disputatio) 14:33, 19 Iulii 2014 (UTC)

Quid igitur volueras dicens "Callidus, autem, latine sit polliceri non possum. Solum ne sit alienus hodiernus velim. Fors, in modo usandi, erravi sed in principio, non facile acceptus est."? Laurentianus (disputatio) 18:00, 21 Iulii 2014 (UTC)

Quomodo dicere? May I say, could we put "gubernamenti" (although it is servile/conceding --to modern usage--). I, on the other hand can not guarantee it is to be excellent in latin. Just that it would be irrelevant/strange today.(my bad prose/rhetorics,change of discussion/subject to collegium) Maybe, in use I made mastakes, but at first it(collegium) was not accepted. I confess, I am struggling with latin and ask that you bear with me. Ita est quod velim dicere. Me paenitet et mollior emendare latinam meam. --Jondel (disputatio) 23:51, 21 Iulii 2014 (UTC)