Disputatio:IEEE

Jondel, slow down, pause, and check what your doing. Where do you get the IEEE is a company or even a just a professional society? Every language I checked calls it either an association or an organization. That's because it consists of a bunch of societies, plus other stuff like working groups and councils that are not open to members. Thus I don't see why you changed organizatio which directly translates the english page.

Also, I think you all missed the idea behind IEEE 754. All of entries there are standards that are published by working groups and committees: in particular IEEE 754 is an standard for floating point arithmetic.--123.192.64.184 00:48, 10 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

Hold on. I didn't change organizatio.We've been discussing these different terms. How do you feel about collegium(guild, society)? Organizatio for the IEEE itself is fine by me too. I hesitate with organizatio because there are sentiments here to use as ancient as possible latin. I agree that standards are established and published with working groups. I studied Electronics Engineering. I know that a floating point has to be established to fix a point for calculation in calculators and computers. HDTV can not fully take off because of conflicting standards. IEEE fulfills a great role of establishing electrical and electronic standards. Btw, please use your username. --Jondel 01:06, 10 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

Also it doesn't seem to mean 'company' with 'non ad lucrum apposita'= non profit.--Jondel 01:10, 10 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to change the organization word to colegium. Please feel free to change or revert.--Jondel 01:35, 10 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

Don't see how "not being opposed to profit" changes any meaning. You also realize the problem in conlegium too, right? IEEE is not a guild, nor a union, nor is it a corporation.--123.192.64.184 01:42, 10 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

For 'nonprofit', non ad lucrum apposita (not opposita) was a guess along the lines of 'set not for profit'; maybe ad lucrum non apposita would have been better, but neither is likely to be best. Perhaps the bare voluntarius would do. In any case, the concept differs from 'unprofitable', for which Latin glosses can easily be found. IacobusAmor 10:22, 10 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

Well, it is also a body of priest, who establish rituals and standards to bring harmony to the powers that be. Corporations are based on profit. It wasn't in this sense,that collegium/conlegium is found in dictionaries. A guild is an organization of members of similar professions (but in a corporate sense). I don't think they had "non-profit" organizations in the days of Cicero, so how do you translate that(NPOs)? If they did, the norms would have been established by scribes and priest which seems best conveyed by collegium in the meaning of well, " board (of priests)"; and "brotherhood" . What ever the word will be, the idea to be translated is "a non-profit organization of individuals and groups who establish the specifications of applied technology" . If we have have to use neo-latin, let us do it but as a last option. Please feel free to revert, change. I have to go now.--Jondel 02:04, 10 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

Sorry one more thing. If you want to prevail with the dictionary 'translation' of collegium, why not examine the prevailing use of "college" in English, which seems to retain the original meaning:'self-governing association of scholars ', 'an organized association of persons having certain powers and rights, and performing certain duties or engaged in a particular pursuit: ', 'a body of clergy living together on a foundation for religious service or similar activity. '--Jondel 02:10, 10 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

Collegium/conlegium has a very specific latin meaning (a corporation), as does guilda (guild), and societas (a partnership or company in general), and universitas (corporation plus members considered as a whole) as their meaning was specifically defined by laws and contracts. THe points you bring up about english are irrelevant to this..--123.192.64.184 03:37, 10 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

For 'guild', Cassell's gives conlegium (bare, with no modifier). Under conlegium, Cassell's gives conlegium mercatorum 'a trade guild' (apud Livy). IacobusAmor 10:22, 10 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

In this case Cassell's misses the mark, for all roman guilds were corporations (Conlegia), but not all corporations were guilds. See en:Collegium_(ancient_Rome) The defining characteristic of conlegium is having a separate legal personhood, which is what in general defines even a modern corporation (whose formation is motivated by the limited liability which comes from that separate legal personhood)--123.192.64.184 11:17, 10 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

Cassell's doesn't say that all corporations were guilds: it says that when Livy wrote conlegium mercatorum, he meant 'guild'. Cassell's's prime gloss of conlegium is 'colleagueship, the connexion between those who jointly fill the same office'; in the concrete, Cassell's says the term came to refer to 'persons united in colleagueship, a body, guild, corporation, college'. This was presumably the same process by which civitas 'citizenship, the condition or rights of a citizen' came to refer to 'a union of citizens, a state, commonwealth'. IacobusAmor 11:30, 10 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

More importantly, you are misguided in your desire to limit yourself to only ancient terms when describing modern ideas with specific latin terms preexisting to describe them. The point here isn't to purge modern vocabulary but to create genuine latin following the rules, idiom, vocabulary and usages of ancient latin. It is ok to use new terms and borrowings as long as they have a page or some explanation is provided to describe what they mean.--123.192.64.184 03:37, 10 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

Hey, I completely agree with you and will use nova as needed. Its just that I don't want to encourage

creating another "new latin" language with new vocabulary. Please change to "organizatio" or

any other word if you feel this is appropriate.--Jondel 02:45, 11 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

Most Schools and colleges are examples of non profit corporations and there are many others.--123.192.64.184 03:37, 10 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

Thus, a "college" in English is essentially a "non-profit" (ehem)"corporation".Touche.--Jondel 02:45, 11 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

College in english probably, yes, but not collegium in latin...isn't that what we are talking about, your proposed use of the latin term collegium in this article? Of what possible relevance is the english term college?--123.192.64.184 13:27, 13 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

ok. I hope we're not getting confused here. I would like to use "Collegium" in latin as a non profit organization. Yes, I propose and strongly feel collegium is appropriate. The 'college' of priests in Cicero's time was not for profit. Neither where the brotherhoods or schools in the ancient latin sense. The collegium as I can understand was a group of highly specialized members or erudite people (priests).It is non sequitur that a corporation or a collegium in the latin sense is for profit. Look, I feel you are too fixated on the one definition of "corporation" being for profit, thus want to avoid using the term. I don't think collegium necessarily includes the meaning of profit making. The relevance with English is that, the meaning was retained in English, although college is more associated with school. Organizatio is too recent. If the word exists in old original latin why not use it(collegium)? College in in today's English is associated with school but I feel it was the word originated to mean a group of erudite people (organized to teach)... and evolved to mean today's institute of higher learning. Confused ? Its' just that (one of) the original meaning('s) was retain in in the English meaning of electroral college and " body of clergy living together on a foundation for (religious) service or similar activity" which is evidence that latin collegim should be used. If the meaning of non profit organzation in English exists, the corresponding original latin word must be used for the Latin.--Jondel 12:07, 14 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

According to the OED, the original meaning of college in English was 'an organized society of persons performing certain common functions and possessing special rights and privileges; a body of colleagues, a guild, fellowship, association'; and the first known use of the word in English, around the year 1380, occurred in the phrase "Christe and his collage" [i.e., the Apostles]. It's quite a stretch to get from English in 1380 to Latin in 50 BCE. ¶ In regard to profit: the Latin word, as defined in all my dictionaries, seems neither to be for it nor against it! IacobusAmor 12:50, 14 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

Jondel, your approach is utterly without logic or justification.Judging the meaning of ancient latin terms based on what borrowed latin terms mean in a modern language is bizarre. It does not even work for english terms borrowed from modern languages. Are we supposed to glean the meaning of integer and ego from their english meaning too?

Why not simply look at the absolute MOUNTAINS of scholarship on the latin terms themselves? (e.g. like lacus curtius), or even the britannica encyclopedia or the latin google?)

To sumamrize, your idea that a collegium is not a corporation, that that a collegium necessarily non profit, simply is arbitrary and the reasons given are utterly without merit. The same may be said of your notion that an "organization" (english term) implies something is "for-profit"--where in the world did you get that--certainly not any english usage! If so someone better tell the UN.--123.192.64.184 18:35, 14 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

Let us avoid extremes ok? I am not saying latin collegium is not a corporation in the English sense. Nor am I saying that English organization(or corporation) is(are) for profit. If collegium is fine with you for the article, I've had my say but I will not revert if you replace it with 'organizatio'. A lawyer will say that in English a corporation is not necessarily for profit. (You're avoiding the term for corporation aren't you?) Churches and charities, etc establish corporations. However, in everyday street language, corporation is ussually associated with profit. IF it is ok to use collegium latin for non profit organizations, specially if they are a group of highly specialized people(priests, experts in a profession) then, I've had my say. The problem is that I think you want to avoid all latin terms that contain "corporation" since it is associated with profit. Organizatio is fine but less desirable because it is more recent. Are you ok with 'collegium'?

Why is it bizarre to judge from borrowed words? There is an issue of preserving the language and the older the deriviation the better. Your examples of integer and ego are extreme. If the meaning is far off like integer in your example, then of course, avoid the term. But if the meanin is retained, then it would a better choice and help to preserve the language.

If you use 'organizatio' or new words, you are encouraging a new language to be created. Don't go to the opposite extreme end, everyone accepts that old words can't be used all the time. We can't describe quantum physics, networking technology, genetic engineering using Ciceronian language but we can use new words only as a last option.Sorry for extending this way beyond.--Jondel 01:53, 15 Octobris 2010 (UTC)

The Lacus Curtius page is very nice!!--Jondel 01:57, 15 Octobris 2010 (UTC)