Disputatio:Granienum

Move

If we don't have a source for Granienum, then our anonymous IP friend has a point, but I still wouldn't want to move the page, because you would have to choose between the Aragonese and the Spanish name, and in those language wars you will never be completely NPOV. Whatever criterion you take, someone will consider that your criterion is already biased. Granienum is the perfect Latinisation of both the Spanish and the Aragonese name. Sure, it's against our policy to make it up, but to move, you have to move it SOMEWHERE, and I don't see a policy-conforming place to move it to. Sigur (disputatio) 15:43, 15 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)

I agree, we have to have somewhere to move to.

It was mentioned in documents of 1104, 1198, 1258 and 1372. The Spanish and Aragonese articles say this but unluckily no footnotes. Probably at least some of those documents were in Latin, so, since there's no current or recent Latin name, the proper name to choose will be the best that those documents offer. All we have to do is find them :) I have drawn a blank so far, but after all I know nothing of Spanish medieval history. Maybe Xaverius?

Note this online library which could be useful. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:58, 15 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)

I wasn't at my best yesterday :) I now see that Anonymus has already supplied these names among the alternatives in the first line. The source cited (the worst-designed web page ever) gives no additional information that I can see, except that one of the names, possibly Grangene, dates from 1105, which corresponds to the oldest date I mentioned above. Amazing.

Certainly not well designed! I can't read the text in yellow at all, unless I swipe & hold the cursor over it so as to change its color. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:06, 16 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)

If dealing with such a list of medieval names for e.g. a French or English village, and if it would be a long task to check the full texts of any of the documents concerned, I would accept the one or two that look a bit like nominatives or locatives or ablatives of a Latin version, and take it that that's what they are. Anyone who comes later can check and improve on this: Vicipaedia is a work in progress. In this case I would take Grangen -e as a potential Latin name, nominative and locative/ablative, and move to "Grangen". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:31, 16 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)

This page has Granienum (and versions in other languages) but doesn't cite a source. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:06, 16 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)

It smells as if they have picked it here, but then again, if the municipality itself says that that's its name, then I would tend to stick with it. Sigur (disputatio) 13:16, 16 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)

That Latin name is [surely] borrowed from Wikipedia or Wikidata. Other [examples] will be found by searching "Granienum" on Google. We must avoid sourcing that circles back to Wikimedia.

Eventually, some months or even years after we make our decision, it filters through to dependent websites. The next or next-but-one webmaster in Granyen will refresh, and post a different Latin name, perhaps without even noticing. Eventually the world will be a more reliable (Latin) place. That's the influence we have: not negligible ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:19, 16 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)

But all this is inconclusive, unluckily. We need a name that we know is Latin, attached to a source that we know is reliable. Where else but in those medieval documents? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:53, 16 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)

I'm still not 100% convinced that I should care why a municipality accepts a certain word as its correct Latin name, but in any case, if we move, then I agree it should be to Grangen. Sigur (disputatio) 21:27, 16 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't reply before, I've been ill. Your point is a good one. I agree exactly with your conclusion, and I don't think there is sufficient reason to move at all, yet, so let's leave it as it is. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:49, 19 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)

We do not know if the documents in that awfully-designed website are in Romance or in Latini. The 'ayuntamientos' website is not any more reliable. Considering all this, it mighht be better to be cautious, and redirect the page to the offical name (Grañén) and add Granienum as a possible yet unconfirmed Latin name.--Xaverius 12:08, 19 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)

But then you are choosing Spanish over Aragonese. Good luck with the language warriors... Sigur (disputatio) 13:41, 19 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)

Our contributor worked with "Granienum" -- and maybe chose it -- then suggested moving to "Granyen", hence this discussion. We'd want a firm policy behind us if moving anywhere else. I think policy, without some further evidence, would lead us to retain the Latin name we have. As Iacobus showed, we have a source (which I will add to the page). Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:00, 19 Ianuarii 2020 (UTC)

De nomine

Usor ignote, hanc rem de tibi peto: si nomen Latinum nobis dedisti Granienum, cur in textis novis nomen vulgare Granyen (vel Granyenensis) scribes? --Xaverius 10:01, 6 Februarii 2020 (UTC)

Dubito eundem usorem esse (olim 83.34.99.252, nunc 139.47...). Sigur (disputatio) 10:38, 6 Februarii 2020 (UTC)