Disputatio:Crepundium

First sentence

Rafael, what do you think about the POV/usefulness of the first two sentences? Is it true that toys are usually associated with children and only interdum with adults (think of the saying, the bigger the boy, the better the toy) or animals, and is that really so much the essence of what a toy is that needs to be in the lemma? Excuse the figura etymologica, but simply put: ludicrum est quo ludunt. Just a thought. Glad we are knocking out these pesky last 100 pages =] --Ioscius ^(disp) 03:43, 16 Iulii 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's almost what :en: says: "A toy is an object used in play. Toys are usually associated with children and pets, but it is not unusual for adult humans and some non-domesticated animals to play with toys." IacobusAmor 04:03, 16 Iulii 2009 (UTC)

Fine. I question its usefulness at en, too... --Ioscius ^(disp) 04:12, 16 Iulii 2009 (UTC)

About 'toy' in Latin

Hello folks.

I've recently added two more names for 'toy' in Latin, and I wonder, what name for toy in Latin is the best or fittest? If you know, what did the romans call toys? Maybe we can use their name(s) for toys.

Donatello (disputatio) 20:02, 18 Iulii 2012 (UTC).

For 'toy', the ancient Romans had crepundia, -orum. I'm not sure whether it was a genuine plurale tantum (as I believe nuptiae was) or not. Maybe it just tended to be utilised in plural (collective). As far as I know, crepundia consisted of varieous miniature objects such as rattles (perhaps the original meaning; cf. the verb crepare), dolls, animals, small hatchets, swords, tiny vessels, and so on, which were often collected into a necklace to be worn by children as amulets. Vilborg's crepundium is an obvious back-formation. Not bad at all, I think. ¶ Ludicrum doesn't denote a toy in the first place, but rather public games or theatrical performances. Methinks it's not a good title / lemma. ¶ Recula puerilis, maybe Vilborg's own suggestion, inspired by Swedish leksak? Be as it might, my favourite title is crepundium (or if we are very philological, the plural form crepundia). Neander (disputatio) 15:39, 19 Iulii 2012 (UTC)

I see. Thank you very much! Good information. Maybe leksak inspired Vilborg to recula puerilis. Leksak means litteraly 'plaything' in English and recula seems to be close to it.

Donatello (disputatio) 15:55, 19 Iulii 2012 (UTC).

Credo translationem veram pro 'toy' est 'ludimentum' [1] vel 'ludibrium': quia saepe invenitur apud Google books. Si nomen 'crepundia' hac causa usurpatur, tunc quo appellamur 'rattle toy'?--66.171.178.34 16:42, 19 Iulii 2012 (UTC)

Ludimentum in scriptis antiquis vix (praeter quod semel in Philoxeni Glossario) legitur, sed non nego id rationaliter Graecum παίγνιον 'toy' Latine reddere. Sed res in imagine ("Collectio ludicrorum crepundiorum Romanorum") huic symbolae addita certe crepundia sunt appellata. ¶ Notandum est crepundia nusquam in scriptis antiquis 'rattle' significare, licet etymologice ad verbum crepandi referri videatur; 'rattle' = Latine crepitaculum. Neander (disputatio) 20:15, 19 Iulii 2012 (UTC)

Apud Cassell's Latin Dictionary, toy = plaything = ludibrium, "otherwise render by phrase, such as, id quod pueris in lusum offertur" ; atque vicissim crepundia = 'a child's plaything, a rattle,' or 'amulet'. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:53, 19 Iulii 2012 (UTC)

Quamquam Ludibrium quoque sensu 'plaything' attestatur, Ludimentum ludibrio nos mallere oportere credo propter alios sensus quos Lewis et Short dicunt ludibrium habere incluso sensu primario "a mockery, derision, wantonness." et quoque "Abuse, violence done to a woman": ecce Lewis and Short-Ludibrium (et confer: Lewis and Short-Ludimentum)--66.171.178.34 18:45, 19 Iulii 2012 (UTC)

De finibus crepundiorum et deliciarum

Nomen adhibitum debet continere sensus 'adult toy' sicut 'pila', 'ipad', 'iphone', et quoque 'sex toys' sicut 'dildo' et 'vibrator' -- omnes res quae in lusum offertur.--66.171.178.34 17:52, 19 Iulii 2012 (UTC)

Possumus illa omnia uno verbo comprehendere, sed haud debemus. Hic paginas encyclopaedicas confecimus sub titulis Latinis; licet igitur alium verbum de crepundiis infantilibus, alium de deliciis adultorum mechanicis seligere si melius ad linguam nostram convenit. Sed eae res quas enumeras nonne "crepundia" vel "crepitacula" sunt? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:15, 20 Iulii 2012 (UTC)

Nonne praestat extensionem conceptualem crepundiorum ita finire ut ex museorum et tabernarum crepundiariorum exemplis patet? In Leksakslandet sive Crepundiovia (Vilborg) Holmiensi nec dildones nec vibratra reperies. Nostrum non est mundum regere sed mundum referre. Neander (disputatio) 11:46, 20 Iulii 2012 (UTC)