Disputatio:Caiania

Revisio ...

I tried to revise a bit. I don't understand "palus retinaculis in scoldias", I must admit. Something damp and northern, no doubt. I guessed that the last sentence (about Karelians) wasn't part of the word history bit, so I moved it up; was that right?

I think it's +1 now, but I would think that, wouldn't I? Maybe someone else will have a look. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:22, 25 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for revising the article for me. I fear it may slip once again into "L?" or below once I write the history section. The "palus retinaculis in scoldias" was me trying to translate "Noteworthy in this context is also the word "kainu", which is only known in lower Satakunta in Finland. It had a completely different meaning being the middle stake in a work sled (Picture), also clearly deriving from *gain-." I might put it back into 2 sections rather than a numbered list, if you don't object. Thanks to Rafael for helping too. Is spissitas better than densitas? I tend to use the latter much more regularly. I would also like to change Nemorosa (listed in Words as "lesser") to Silvosa or Silvestris which are more common and resemle Silva. --Harrissimo 13:29, 25 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Silvestris is quite OK in itself. My reason for changing it was to avoid excessive repetition: the word silva already occurs twice in the sentence.

"Is spissitas better than densitas"? I must admit I have never looked into this. I didn't change that word. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:51, 25 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I think that was Rafael's. My Oxford Latin Minidictionary doesn't offer Spissitas, whereas it does offer Densitas and I guess Anglophones will be able to relate to this much more easily. --Harrissimo 15:17, 25 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I don't know per se the best word. I was just going by the page Spissitudo (discretiva) and the links therein. From what I've read about frequentia, however, I think that should be the best word (crowdedness, abundance). On the other hand, I don't know how meanings evolved over time in latin. Frequentia (in spanish frecuencia) came to mean the same thing as frequency in english (at least in a scientific context), Spissus (in spanish espesso) came to mean thickness as in viscousness (did this come from a medical or scientific use?); densitas (densidad) came to mean density in the same sense as the word in english (newton in latin used densitas in this sense and so did other scientists of that time). However, I don't know if densitas is used in the sense of number per unit area. --Rafaelgarcia 16:36, 25 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I didn't like to mention frequentia, Rafael, remembering some recent dispute ...! But (looking at a classical Latin dictionary only) I think frequentia is the best of the three. Densitas is just possible (Quintilian talks about the density of metaphors in a text, meaning how many there are); spissitudo seems to be used mainly about honey, which is admittedly spreadable but not in the same way as people. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:17, 25 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Words doesn't say frequentia means density and it could confuse, I think, from the other contexts of the word. Spissitudo and Densitas have roughly equal Google hits from my search and our page is Spissitudo incolarum. I think that I have seen densitas more in article text and infoboxes, though. --Harrissimo 23:18, 25 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Looking things up on Perseus I get this:

creber means "thick in space or time" commonly meaning "frequent" as well as "thick" depending on the context--the most general idea of crowded it seems.

frequens mostly means "occuring frequently", "frequently visited" or "crowded with people" --is it focusing on the quality of repeated motion or perhaps accumulation or result of motions? (note frequentia means number, multitude)

densus means "crowded together" as opposed to rarus. It carries the context of things not moving. For example dense woods but not in the sense of crowded room.--is it focusing on the quality of encountering something?

crassus means "solid/thick" as opposed to "fluid/thin" or aquatus or tenuis--is it focusing on the quality of flow? being pliable? A thick versus thin branch.

Spissus means "crowded" in the sense of "compact and impenetrable" and of "dense" or "slow".--is it focusing on the quality of unchanging inpenetrability? resistance to movement or flow?

So all of these are close synonyms but they each seem to ask us to look at things from a different perspectives. I'm not sure I completely grasp the subtlety of the distinctions, though. So which one best corresponds to the quality of people being crowded on the scale of a country? I think either densus or spissus works as well. --Rafaelgarcia 03:43, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I made a small changes above to crassus, spissus, frequens.--Rafaelgarcia 12:49, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

My opinions:

• creber: I have never heard of it and I don't think it would work well at all
• densus/itas: My favourite, personally, since it means pretty much what we need and most European languages probably relate to it in some way.
• spissus/itas: The second best option in my opinion. I have seen it around, for sure, but maybe it could mean thickness of a substance (did someone write honey somewhere for this?)
• frequens/entia: Ainsworth's dictionary (via Iacobus) recommends it, but this could mislead, since it has other meanings and, as Rafael said above, it could relate to Spanish and English words relating to frequency/number.

I suppose that we could carry on with both spiss(us/itas) and dens(us/itas) since 1. It would take a huge amount of Admin work to change all references from one to the other 2. They are the best two options (in my opinion at least) and have mainly relevant definitions. --Harrissimo 15:44, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you that, from what I've read, densitas is the better word. However, given the great number of times that spissitas is already used on Vicipaedia, I don't want to change anything unless I become *absolutely* sure that densitas is the better choice. To me, it's worth thinking about for a couple weeks more and I'll continue to search for answers.--Rafaelgarcia 16:19, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we really need to change everything to do with Spissitas (if it is proven to be less effective than Densitas) since the wider Vicipaedia community will probably continue to use both terms anyway. It's a bit like saying on the English Wikipedia "magnitude is a better word than size, so we will all change the 15, 000 pages with "size" written on. I think maybe we should copy this discussion to Spissitudo or Spissitudo incolarum. --Harrissimo 16:35, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

This discussion (i.e. about densitas and spissitas) is now at Disputatio:Spissitudo. --Harrissimo 16:45, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Historia

Inhabitantes originalis Caianiae erant Venatores et Piscatores Lapponici. In Saeculo 17, Petrus Brahe, Gubernator generalis Finniae, hortatus est populatio Finnica vivere in Caiania et statuit regio sine vectigali. Regio erat ex Occidente a Russis cominata, itaque Brahe voluit populare regionem. Hi novae agripetae (saepe agricolae) venerunt plerumque e Savonia, ergo dialectus localis est similis dialectum Savonianum. Erat pars provinciae hisoricae Ostrobothniae quoad 1634, cum factus est Kexholmensis Comitatus.

The original inhabitants of Kainuu were Sami Hunters and Fiserman. In the 17th century, Per Brahe, the General governor of Finland, encouraged the Finnish population to live in Kainuu and created a region without taxes. The region was under threat from the east by the Russians, and so Brahe wanted to populate the region. These new settlers (often farmers) came mostly from Savonia, therefore the local dialect is similar to the Savonian dialect. It was a part of the historical province of Ostrobothnia until 1634, when it became Kexholm County.

Please correct the Latin text for mistakes. --Harrissimo 14:50, 25 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

To start you off: inhabitantes is plural, but originalis is singular. There's no good reason to capitalize venatores & piscatores. You don't need In with saeculo (in the ablative). Populatio is a problematic word for two reasons: (1) its meaning has shifted drastically (to Cicero, it meant 'a laying waste, ravaging, plundering'); (2) Latin prefers the concrete (cives, homines, populus, etc.) to abstractions. To Cicero, populare regionem meant 'to ravage the region'. In similis dialectum Savonianum, the nouns shouldn't be accusative; there are several ways of handling likeness, but a common one is with the genitive (e.g., patris similis esse 'to be like his father = to be his father's like'). Hisoricae is misspelled. OK, that's a start! IacobusAmor 17:34, 25 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

While Iacobus was writing that, I was having a go too. I haven't compared what he says with my text. Here it is:

Lapponi Caianiam ab origine colentes a venatione et piscatu vivebant. Saeculo 17 Petrus Brahe, gubernator generalis Finniae, hortatus est Finnos ut in Caianiam adeant, regionem liberam omnium vectigalium statuens. Terram enim ex orientali latere a Russis minatam voluit incolentibus frequentioribus replere. Novi coloni, maxima e parte agricolae, plerumque a Savonia venerunt; ergo lingua eorum simillima est dialecto Savonianorum. Caiania erat pars provinciae historicae Ostrobothniae, sed anno 1634 factus est Kexholmensis Comitatus. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:53, 25 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

May I modify a bit Andrew's praiseworthy translation:

Lapponi Caianiam ab origine colentes venatione et piscatu vivebant. Saeculo 17 Petrus Brahe, gubernator generalis Finniae, hortatus est Finnos ut in Caianiam adirent, regionem liberam omnium vectigalium statuens. Voluit enim terram, quam Russi ex orientali latere minabantur, incolis frequentioribus replere. Novi coloni, maxima e parte agricolae, plerumque a Savonia venerunt; ergo lingua eorum simillima est dialecti Savonianorum. Caiania erat pars provinciae historicae Ostrobothniae, sed anno 1634 factus est Kexholmensis Comitatus.

I'm not sure, if dialectus Savonianorum is good. Arx Savonum would suggest Dialectus Savonum, but I'm not sure about this. --Neander 19:15, 25 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about all this, but could you please translate it into English for me, so that I can follow it word for word and (hopefully) learn from my mistakes?

Also, why are we using genitive plural for the dialect and not just an adjective (like in Lingua Xus (-a -um)--Harrissimo 23:07, 25 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Often it isn't a question of mistakes, Harrissimo (though, as you see, we all make those!) It's more that the natural way of putting things in Latin is often different from the natural way in English. And that's something you pick up from reading real Latin, as soon as you can and as much as you can. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:35, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Harrissimo, the Latin text is basically from Andrew, with a few modifications by me (e.g., minari 'threaten' is a deponent verb, and therefore I had to use a relative clause). I'm here trying to re-translate the emended Latin text into English:

The Lapps originally inhabiting Kainuu lived on hunting and fishing. In the 17th century, Per Brahe, the General governor of Finland, encouraged Finns to go to Kainuu, creating a region free from taxes. He wished namely that the region which was under threat from the east front by the Russians be replenished with more inhabitants. The new settlers, for the most part farmers, came mostly from Savonia; therefore their language is very similar to the Savonian dialect. Kainuu was a part of the historical province of Ostrobothnia, but in 1634, it became Kexholm County.

Thank you, all of you, for helping me out with this! --Harrissimo 16:10, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Re Savonian dialect, perhaps dialectus Savoniensis, but I suggest you ask the Nuntii Latini people. I have no experience in Finnish Latinity, I'm sorry to say. --Neander 01:08, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Two tiny tweaks to the English: (1) venatione et piscatu vivebant 'lived by hunting and fishing'; (2) governor general is a fixed phrase, like secretary general and heir apparent, members of a small set of English phrases that place their adjective after their noun. Some other ones: battle royal, [the] church militant, [the] house beautiful, letters patent, light fantastic, queen regnant, prince charming, rhyme royal, sign manual [=signature]. A few other constructions do something similar; for example, you may be likelier to hear that "she was a woman spurned" than that "she was a spurned woman." ¶ In the Latin, change replere to repleri? IacobusAmor 04:05, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Iacobe! I'll remember "live by Xing". Point (2) was in the original. And yes, repleri is good, but replere translates the English original. The question is, which is the best way to construe the agency. --Neander 19:34, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

But you're right, Iacobe. Because I re-translated "be replenished", the right form is repleri, as you said. --Neander 19:40, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)