Disputatio Usoris:Robert.Baruch/Composition Exercises 1

Leave your answers to Exercise 1 here. I'll provide feedback!

De exemplis annotatiunculae

• We call this "progress".
  • Hanc "progressum" appellamus.

The feminine form hanc appears unmotivated, unless backed up with a feminine headword: Hanc rem "progressum" appellamus.

I'm not always certain when to leave res out. One of the examples in a grammar book I've seen has us translate "Give this message" as "report these things" leaving off res. --Robert.Baruch (disputatio) 20:37, 28 Decembris 2013 (UTC)

Well, this, in Give this message, isn't quite the same, because it has a headword (message) within the sentence. In Hunc nuntium adporta, the pronoun hunc gets its gender [m.], number [sg.] and case [acc.] from nuntium. ¶ Examples in grammar books are most of the time system sentences. i.e., stray sentences making a grammatical point but lacking a context clue. In Hanc "progressum" appellamus, the feminine pronoun hanc is looking (in vain) for a context clue, i.e., a reference to something talked about in the previous sentence, or a reference to something to be discussed next, a reference point (a word) that determines the gender of the demonstrative/deictic pronoun. Such being the case, this must be construed as referring abstractly. While this is no problem in English, Latin isn't quite as straightforward. Supplying hanc with a feminine headword with abstract meaning (res) will do the job: Hanc rem "progressum" appellamus. Another way of making an abstract reference consists in putting the pronoun in neuter gender: Hoc [n.sg.acc.] / Haec [n.pl.acc.] "progressum" appellamus. ¶ I admit that the above may smack of nitpickerism, because the grammatical point of the example sentence is elsewhere. Neander (disputatio) 13:16, 29 Decembris 2013 (UTC)

Makes sense. I've changed to hoc. I understand that id (n.sg.nom.) can also be used in the same way to refer to the entire previous statement. --Robert.Baruch (disputatio) 20:28, 31 Decembris 2013 (UTC)

• When I was a young man, I danced well. -> I, a young man, danced well.
  • Adulescens bene salivi.

Salire 'to jump, leap', whereas saltare 'to dance': Adulescens bene saltavi.

Corrected, my bad. Thanks. --Robert.Baruch (disputatio) 20:37, 28 Decembris 2013 (UTC)

• The city of Baltimore is quite boring. -> The city, Baltimore, is hardly of interest to anyone.
  • Baltimora urbs cuivis haud interest.

Quivis 'any one you please', whereas quisquam 'any (one), anybody'. ¶ Haud 'not' (and haud usually goes with an adverb, e.g. haud bene). In other positions, non is preferable. Vix 'hardly'. ¶ Baltimora urbs vix cuiquam interest. Another version of 'to be of interest': Baltimorà urbe vix quisquam oblectatur. Neander (disputatio) 07:56, 28 Decembris 2013 (UTC)

Looking through L&S, I see now the vix/haud difference. I chose quivis over quisquam because quisquam (and its adjective version ullus) are mainly used in negative phrases. Whether vix covers that, I don't know, but it seems cuiquam makes more sense. --Robert.Baruch (disputatio) 20:37, 28 Decembris 2013 (UTC)

In Romance languages hardly tends to be treated grammatically as a negative: thus in French it is usually ne ... guère. Also, come to think of it, in colloquial English: I can't hardly feel it. I can't hardly eat a thing. Which might (or might not) help to explain why quisquam and ullus suit this context :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:54, 29 Decembris 2013 (UTC)

Exempla

The next street, Narrow Way, is hardly narrow

• Vicus proximus Angusta Via haud angustus est. | IACOBVS.CELSVS (disputatio) 17:36, 27 Decembris 2013 (UTC)

Aside from vix/haud, which was my bad, this is fine with respect to apposition. But vicus means street only in the sense of a neighborhood, as in the street of the fishmongers which really means that place where the fishmongers gather to sell fish, or the street of the temples of the gods, which is the street lined with temples. Street, referring to the road itself, would just be via. --Robert.Baruch (disputatio) 20:47, 28 Decembris 2013 (UTC)

• Via proxima, Via Angusta, vix angusta est. Neander (disputatio) 17:52, 27 Decembris 2013 (UTC)

I love the alliteration :) I wonder if we could add some fun symmetry, too: Via proxima, Angusta Via, vix angusta est. --Robert.Baruch (disputatio) 20:47, 28 Decembris 2013 (UTC)

Well, why not? This is one of the assets in a free-word-order language. Neander (disputatio) 13:22, 29 Decembris 2013 (UTC)

My neighbor, the idiot, set fire to his curtains today

• Vicinus meus, homo fatuus, hodie vela sua incendit. Neander (disputatio) 17:23, 29 Decembris 2013 (UTC)

Yep. We could argue about whether vicinus meus fatuus would work also (as opposed to vicinus fatuus meus), but your version is very clear: my neighbor, an idiotic man. --Robert.Baruch (disputatio) 20:24, 31 Decembris 2013 (UTC)

Well, rather than 'my neighbor, the idiot', vicinus meus fatuus would mean 'my idiotic neighbor'; and, at least to me, vicinus fatuus meus would mean 'neighbor, that idiot of mine'. It's almost obligatory to say vicinus meus, homo fatuus, the pattern being the same as Socrates, homo sapientissimus (rather than Socrates sapiens) for 'the wise(,) Socrates'. Neander (disputatio) 13:12, 2 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

• Vicinus meus, homo stultus, hodie vela sua accendit.

By the way, I did not take anything from Neader's translation, despite the simularity. | IACOBVS.CELSVS (disputatio) 18:35, 3 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

Charles and Frederick, the brothers of Gregory Junior, do not live in the city of San Francisco

• Carolus et Fredericus, Gregorii Iunioris fratres, in Franciscopoli urbe non habitant. Neander (disputatio) 13:12, 2 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

• Carolus et Fredericus, fratres Gregorii Iunioris, in urbe Franciscopoli non incolunt. | IACOBVS.CELSVS (disputatio) 18:53, 3 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

Indeed! Interesting differences in word order. Amicus Neander has a nice alliteration going with fratres close to Franciscopoli. On the other hand, I kind of like amicus Iacobus's in urbe which rolls off the tongue nicely. You can tell I'm reaching for compliments, as there isn't anything otherwise wrong :) --Robert.Baruch (disputatio) 04:32, 4 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

Let me add that, in classical Latin, the usual & normal construction is incolere + ACC. Prepositional phrase is certainly possible, too. Neander (disputatio) 20:33, 4 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

My car, a dented wreck, nevertheless still runs

• Autocinetum meum, scruta contusa, nihilo minus etiamnunc currit. Neander (disputatio) 13:12, 2 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

Yes. I had in mind collisa, but contusa works just as well. Focusing on the apposition, well done in not making the verb plural. --Robert.Baruch (disputatio) 04:51, 4 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

• Autocinetum meum, nocita miseria, nihilominus etiamnum currit. | IACOBVS.CELSVS (disputatio) 19:14, 3 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

The apposition is fine, but I'm not sure about nocita (having been injured). I think you mistook wretch (miser) for wreck. Remember the trick about going to the Latin definition after you've chosen a word, to make sure it makes sense. I myself might look at wreck, seen frangere, and used that to re-word the sentence: fractum collisumque, having been broken and smashed to pieces. Again, it's ok to reword the sentence to retain the spirit if you can't find an exact match. --Robert.Baruch (disputatio) 04:51, 4 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

Your aunt Chlamydia and her old father Sarcastus drove my car to Minneapolis and St. Paul, the twin cities

• Chlamydia, amita / matertera tua, paterque eius senex Sarcastus autocineto meo Minneapolim Paulopolimque in urbes geminas vecti sunt. Neander (disputatio) 06:29, 3 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

I might have used paterque senex eius. I'm curious as to your reasoning? Were you going for something like her father, the old man Sarcastus? Also I would have written in urbes geminas Minneapolim etc. or in Minneopolim Paulopolimque, urbes geminas. Reasoning? Also I think vehere is somewhat passive, meaning as a passenger. Harrius Potter uses gubernare. --Robert.Baruch (disputatio) 05:09, 4 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

Actually, paterque eius senex accords with te typical pattern "NOUN + eius + ADJECTIVE" (cf. Cicero, de natura deorum 2.90 motus eius finitos et aequabiles; in Verrem 2.5.25 de omnibus rebus eius gestis; pro Cluentio 161 in rebus eius incommodissimis). I understand that paterque senex eius may come up easily from the English construction, but can you cite other examples of it? True enough, paterque senex eius is fully intelligible but, nitpickerishly, I'd translate it 'and her old man, the father'. ¶ Yes, in urbes geminas Minneapolim et Paulopolim is ok, in fact, it may be better than my proposal, the reasoning of which was this: when you're speaking of coming to some place, say, a town, you have to use a prepositional phrase (e.g. pervenio in urbem), but when you're coming to a named town, say, Regium ('Reggio'), you're bound to use the accusative case instead of a prepositional phrase (e.g. pervenio Regium). Now, if you decide to combine the two, what you get is either in urbem Regium or Regium in urbem (cf. Plinius, nat. 12.7). But, from the grammatical point of view, pervenio in Regium urbem violates the "pervenio Regium" rule (as does your in Minneopolim Paulopolimque, urbes geminas). I'm not saying that it's flatly impossible to say so, but certainly not something to be preferred. ¶ On the passivity of vehi: I'd not be so sure about that, Roberte. I'd rather say that vehi is neutral in the activity/passivity dimension. The construction "vehi + instrumental ablative" is in principle open to both interpretations, depending on the context and on the vehicle. In the expression X curru vehitur, X may be a passenger more often than not, but in the expression X equo vehitur, X certainly denotes the rider, and in modern Latin we say that X birotà vehitur (e.g. in Ephemeris 2012). Neander (disputatio) 20:16, 4 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

• Amita tua, Chlamydia, paterque senex eius, Sarcastus, autocinetum meum ad Minneapoli Paulopolique, gemino urbi, agerunt. | IACOBVS.CELSVS (disputatio) 20:32, 3 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

Cassel's has to drive (in a carriage) = invehi or gestari, but I think that has a more passive sense (as in to be a passenger). Absent anything better, agere is fine, but gubernare is what I'd have chosen. Watch your case endings! The accusative of -polis is -polim (it's Greek), and the accusative plural of urbs is urbes. Since urbs is feminine, the adjective would be geminas. Make sure you can rattle off the 3rd declension ending table, at least for the common masculine and feminine: X, -is, -i, -em, -e... -es, -(i)um, -ibus, -es, -ibus. --Robert.Baruch (disputatio) 05:09, 4 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

I haven't studied the Greek declensions; that's why Paulopolis was incorrect. However, shouldn't everything from ad to urbi be in the dative? | IACOBVS.CELSVS (disputatio) 07:26, 4 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

I think agere is OK, but the perfect would be egerunt. I don't think you could easily use "gubernare" in this sentence: it doesn't feel right to combine that verb with ad/in/accusative of destination ... and they weren't both steering the car at once, were they? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:29, 5 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

He spoke to your mother Amoeba about his cat Meowlestus, a four-pawed monster

• Ad matri tuae, Amoebae, dixit de fele sua, Meowlestute, monstro cum quattuor pedibus. | IACOBVS.CELSVS (disputatio) 19:08, 4 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)
• Cum matre tua Amoeba de fele sua Maulesto, portento quadrupede, locutus est. Neander (disputatio) 20:42, 4 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

He gave Meowlestus a ball, and she acted [like] a fool.

• Meowlestuti pilam dedit, tunc se stultam praebuit. | IACOBVS.CELSVS (disputatio) 19:45, 4 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)
• Pilam dedit Maulesto, quae tunc ut mente capta agebat. Neander (disputatio) 12:22, 7 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

The ball rolled under the couch, a favorite item for her to scratch upon.

• Pila volvit sub lecto, rei eximia sua scabere. | IACOBVS.CELSVS (disputatio) 20:15, 4 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)
• Pila voluta est sub lectum, supellectilem quam scalpurrire amabat. Neander (disputatio) 12:22, 7 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

The cat, quiet and still, waited for Sarcastus to retrieve the ball, her most favorite toy.

• Illa feles, tacita tranquillaque, Sarcastum pilam, ludicrum eximium suum, recipere praestolatus est. | IACOBVS.CELSVS (disputatio) 02:03, 6 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)
• Feles illa tranquilla et tacita exspectabat, dum Sarcastus depromeret pilam, reculam sibi dilectissimam. Neander (disputatio) 12:22, 7 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

But Chlamydia, a silly woman, distracted the cat.

• At Chlamydia, stulta femina, felem distraxit. | IACOBVS.CELSVS (disputatio) 18:45, 6 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)
• Sed Chlamydia, mulier insulsa, felem avocavit. Neander (disputatio) 12:22, 7 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

I often think about San Francisco, a large city near Silicon Valley.

• Saepe cogito Franciscopolim, urbem magnam prope Silicium Vallis. | IACOBVS.CELSVS (disputatio) 22:17, 6 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)
• Saepe Franciscopolim cogito, urbem magnam prope Silicon Valley ('Vallem siliceam') sitam. Neander (disputatio) 12:22, 7 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

As a young man I wanted to live there.

• Me vire iuveni ibidem volui incolere. | IACOBVS.CELSVS (disputatio) 03:39, 7 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)
• Adulescens ibi habitare cupiebam. Neander (disputatio) 12:22, 7 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

But as a wiser man, I know that San Francisco, a city whose food is wonderful, is better to be visited than inhabited.

• At me vire sapientiore scio ut Franciscopolis, urbs cuius cibus magnificus est, melior commeari quam inhabitari est. | IACOBVS.CELSVS (disputatio) 03:58, 7 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)
• Sed sapientior factus cognovi melius esse visitare quam incolere Franciscopolim, urbem admirabilibus epulis. Neander (disputatio) 12:22, 7 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

However, my friend Androgynus, brother of Placebo and owner of the cat Phlebotomes, lives there.

• At amicus meus Adrogynus, frater Placebonis tenorque illius felis, Phlebotomis, illic incolit. | IACOBVS.CELSVS (disputatio) 04:08, 7 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)
• At tamen amicus meus Androgynus, Placebonis frater et dominus felis Phlebotomae, ibi habitat. Neander (disputatio) 12:22, 7 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)

He says it's great. I think him a moron.

• Dixit bonus est. Cogito ut is idiota est. | IACOBVS.CELSVS (disputatio) 04:17, 7 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)
• Festivum'st, ait. Tardus mihi videtur. Neander (disputatio) 12:22, 7 Ianuarii 2014 (UTC)