Disputatio:Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band

Inaccurate title

Note that the present title of this article, aside from using wrong English-style lowercasing, lacks a mandatory, nonnegotiable apostrophe. IacobusAmor 13:58, 4 Februarii 2007 (UTC)

Translating titles

This text was produced by a contributor who, in the article on the Beatles, changed the Latin titles of Beatles songs to English without understanding the capitalizing conventions of English (as you see above in the lowercased hearts and club and band), and thereby raised an issue: what's the best policy for titles? Certainly in English contexts (with regard to songs, novels, movies, etc.), titles are ordinarily translated; a few, mainly of easily understood personal names & placenames, are left untranslated. Is this question analogous to that of translating personal names? IacobusAmor 13:58, 4 Februarii 2007 (UTC)

I would keep this untranslated, in the exact orthography it had on the album. I would also delete it per the opening paragraph of Vicipaedia:Latinitas.--Ioshus ^(disp) 17:26, 4 Februarii 2007 (UTC)

It's an interesing and complex question. I'd guess the weight of the evidence is that modern languages tend to translate foreign titles, rather than to leave them alone (unless they're self-explanatory cognates or personal names or placenames), and therefore Vicipaedia should too; but of course I'll yield the point if the opposite is proved true. In English, we tend to refer to Thomas Mann's Magic Mountain, not to Der Zauberberg ; to The Sorrows of Young Werther, not to Die Leiden des jungen Werther ; to Beethoven's Symphony No. 3 in E-Flat Major, not to the Symphonie Nr. 3 in Es-Dur, nor even to what Beethoven called it on the MS title page (Sinfonia grande[:] Bonaparte), or what he called it later (Sinfonia eroica, composta per festeggiare il sovvenire d'un grand'uomo), though one word of the later title survives in English writing as the subtitle, Eroica. Hey, English can even get translated into itself when it crosses the Atlantic, as when Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone became Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone in America !  ¶ In English, we use Englishy spellings & pronunciations for the Hebrew & Greek titles of the books of the Bible, just as the Vulgate uses Latiny spellings & pronunciations for them. ¶ Internationally, the situation is more complicated. A Googlesearch in all languages yields 2,040,000 hits for Zauberflöte, but still 1,150,000 for Magic Flute. In exploiting the internet, French-speakers seem to be behind speakers of some other languages, but you'll still get 849,000 hits for Jean Sébastien Bach. Let me rummage a little more. IacobusAmor 19:30, 4 Februarii 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've rummaged. Let's look at how other wikipedias handle the title of Jane Austen's novel Pride and Prejudice. Do they translate it or not? Here's the evidence available in the Roman-alphabet wikis (for ease in comparison, I've bolded the Spanish title, but all other typography is unchanged) :

Česky: Pýcha a predsudek (angl. Pride and Prejudice) je nejznámejší román anglické spisovatelky Jane Austenové.

Deutsch: Stolz und Vorurteil (Originaltitel: Pride and Prejudice) ist der bekannteste Roman der britischen Schriftstellerin Jane Austen, 1813 erschienen.

Español: Orgullo y Prejuicio nos presenta a la adorable y muy alocada familia Bennet. . . .

Français: Orgueil et préjugés (Pride and Prejudice) est le plus connu des six romans de Jane Austen.

Italiano: Orgoglio e pregiudizio (Pride and Prejudice, 1813) è il più celebre romanzo della scrittrice inglese Jane Austen.

Lëtzebuergesch: Pride and Prejudice ass e Roman vun der englescher Schrëftstellerin Jane Austen.

Magyar: A Büszkeség és balítélet címu mu szerzoje a híres XIX. századi angol íróno, Jane Austen.

Nederlands: Pride and Prejudice (Trots en Vooroordeel) is een roman, gepubliceerd in 1813,

Polski: Duma i uprzedzenie (ang. Pride and Prejudice) – powiesc angielskiej pisarki Jane Austen wydana w 1813 roku.

Português: Orgulho e Preconceito (ou, na versão original, Pride and Prejudice) é um romance da escritora britânica Jane Austen, publicado em 1813.

Slovencina: Pýcha a predsudok (angl. Pride and Prejudice) je najznámejší román anglickej spisovatelky Jane Austenovej

Suomi: Jane Austenin 1700-luvun lopulla kirjoittama Ylpeys ja ennakkoluulo, jonka alkuperäinen nimi on Pride and Prejudice,

Svenska: Stolthet och fördom är en roman av Jane Austen, publicerad första gången 1813

Tiếng Việt: Kiêu hãnh và định kiến (tiếng Anh: Pride and Prejudice) là tác phẩm nổi tiếng nhất của nhà văn Anh Jane Austen.

The two languages genetically closest to English feature the English title ; all the others feature a translation of it. We could argue about the correct terms (superbia, contumacia, fastus, vanitas, iactatio, gloria), but analogy with the other wikipedias therefore suggests that the Latin could start something like:

Contumacia et praeiudicium (Anglice: Pride and Prejudice), clarissima historia ficta scriptoris Anglici Ianae Austen, anno 1813 edita.

What say, Ioshe? What's the counterevidence? IacobusAmor 19:30, 4 Februarii 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, i dont speak english... i change to english because noone says 'el club banda delos corazones solitarios del sargento pimienta' or anything like this...abbbey road it says abbey road..not 'el camino de la abadia'... please..understand..and, if you think that i am wrong.. rewrite it...--189.152.33.217 20:27, 4 Februarii 2007 (UTC)

I think 189.152.33.217 is right. And this would be my counter-argument to IacobusAmor: I'm prepared to bet that Pride and Prejudice has been translated into all those languages (except Luxemburgish and maybe Dutch). The titles are therefore likely to have been invented by a translator, then approved by a publisher and in due course by the marketplace. (Note that the French contains a plural: not a literal translation, therefore, but it helps to suggest what Jane Austen meant by "prejudice".) Even if some of us are OK at Latin, are we good enough to invent a title of that standard every time? I would vote for using the original title unless a translated title has become well known. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:46, 4 Februarii 2007 (UTC)

Andrew raises a valid point, and I'll have to look into it. 189.152.33.217|189.152.33.217's point, however, doesn't address the fact that songtexts & titles are often tied to melody & rhythm in such a way that a translation would be aesthetically inappropriate. That's why there's a strong tendency to sing operas in their original language, even where nobody in the cast & audience may be a native speaker of it. Likewise with many songs. Can you imagine a performance of Die Winterreise in English? (Oh yes, of course it can be done, and probably has; but I'm just saying.) The English-language song "Wunderbar, Wunderbar" wouldn't be right as "Wonderful, Wonderful" because completely translating it would eliminate the European touches in the lyrics ("Like our love, it's wunderbar! / Gazing down on the Jungfrau / From our secret chalet for two, / Let us drink, Liebchen mein, / In the moonlight benign, / To the joy of our dream come true"). Likewise the English-language song "Que será será." IacobusAmor 23:23, 4 Februarii 2007 (UTC)

My understanding of the naming policy was that for titles of works for which there is no pre-existing Latin title, we are supposed to leave them in their original language (italicized even if in quotation marks), and then optionally provide a translation in parentheses. This is how I handled the books and articles mentioned in the text of Andreas Dalby. --Iustinus 20:51, 4 Februarii 2007 (UTC)

I see your point Iacobe, but I think the point that Pride and Prejudice has been translated into many languages sets a precedent is a bit stronger. But it should defitely have a better orthography.--Ioshus ^(disp) 23:20, 4 Februarii 2007 (UTC)

Thing is translations of things don't even have to have equivalent titles, if the translator didn't make them that way. I found when doing tigris that the English book Life of Pi (Vita Piscini) has the German title Schiffbruch mit Tiger (Naufragium cum Tigre); the change in the name of the first Harry Potter book is another example (sorcerer is not American for philosopher, however benighted we are). And of course there's not always an exact equivalent to translate to, so why, indeed, Contumacia in ‘Pride and Prejudice’ and not Superbia ? So when I drafted VP:TNP I kept that in mind (though I suggested that works with nothing to translate but the title might have that translated—I'm not sure whether I fully agree with that anymore). If nobody has translated this into Latin, leave it in its original state (but by all means fix the orthography). —Mucius Tever 00:57, 5 Februarii 2007 (UTC)

Hei

nondum eum scribo !! stulti... exspectate...valde nox erat cum eum infeci...--189.152.33.217 20:20, 4 Februarii 2007 (UTC)

Aut, ut Angli solent dicere, {{holdon}}! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:46, 4 Februarii 2007 (UTC)