Disputatio:The Lion King

Imago

Imago non est ex pellicula.Secundus Zephyrus 04:34, 3 Februarii 2007 (UTC)

Question

Does the english title "the lion king" means The king of lions or The king who is a lion?

If it's good English, it has to mean "the king who is a lion". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:55, 15 Maii 2007 (UTC)

I think the adjective leoninus should be considered for the title. Harrissimo.

Wouldn't Rex Leoninus mean something more like 'The Lionlike King'? ¶ Of course, since Leoninus was the most famous European composer of the period 1185–1215 (give or take some years), musical readers might first think of Rex Leoninus as 'King Leoninus'. :) IacobusAmor 00:27, 15 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... As I said in my move, Rex Leo are just two juxtaposed words. I wouldn't exactly like Rex qui est leo either. Do you know of a better adjective (or phrasing) than leoninus? Harrissimo 00:53, 15 Decembris 2007 (UTC).

I wouldn't say that Rex Leo are "juxtaposed", I would say it is more of an apposition. What about a comma that suggests apposition, like in the famous book I, Robot: Rex, Leo aut Leo, Rex? I'm not sure if this would work in Latin the way it does in English, but I'm just throwing ideas out there... -- Secundus Zephyrus 00:59, 15 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

I meant juxtaposed as in they are just two nouns with no grammatical connexion next to each other. I can't say what latin would make of a comma here, though. Ad tabernam? Harrissimo 16:40, 15 Decembris 2007 (UTC).

What's wrong with Rex Leo? IacobusAmor 16:44, 15 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

As 2^us Zephyrus mentioned, the term for this in Latin grammar is "apposition," and it's an acceptable construction. Rex Leoninus is probably more Latin-sounding, but Rex Leo is grammatical and has the benefit of sounding like the titles in the Romance languages (e.g. It. Rei Leone). That someone might think the title means "King Leo" or "King Leonin" isn't really a problem, because if it were the name of a king, one would expect Rex to follow rather than precede. --Iustinus 16:45, 15 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. I'd never heard of apposition and (as you can see) I didn't think you could place two nouns together. In this case, I'll move the page back (and apologize for my ignorance!). Harrissimo 16:54, 15 Decembris 2007 (UTC).

In most cases in which you can in English, you can't in Latin. In the rare-ish cases where you can, they call it apposition. The usual examples are where you appose a proper name and a descriptor (Georgius rex), or a pronoun and a descriptor (ego Claudius) or all of the above (nos Elizabeth regina Britanniarum). A modern case, not occurring (I think) in classical Latin, is where two nouns form a scientific name, Panthera leo.

I am not happy with the present case because I don't quite know how to take "the lion king". I think that rex leoninus is a more accurate translation of what I think the English phrase means; but I also think that rex leo is neater. So I'm not proposing any more changes! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:10, 15 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

I'm with Iustinus on this one. Apposition is cool. --Ioscius ^(disp) 18:11, 15 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

It occurs often in patterns like Urbs Novum Eboracum 'New York City' and ad urbem Romam 'to the city of Rome' & Roma ex urbe 'from the city of Rome' IacobusAmor 19:01, 15 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

Yes, those correspond to my first example. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:42, 15 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

And is in media Roma ([1]), as opposed to in media Romae, an apposition? Harrissimo 23:02, 15 Decembris 2007 (UTC).

Not quite, Harri. This is just the proper construction for Latin. For us Anglophones, the "middle" (notice the definite article I used) is a noun. In Latin, it's an adjective. You aren't in the middle of something, but in media re. This concept is a little confusing, but it also works for "top" and "bottom" in Latin too. A few other ones, as well...--Ioscius ^(disp) 01:07, 16 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

Look at Greek and you'll find another startling usage. Penelope in the Odyssey (1.344) talking about her missing husband: ... ἀνδρός, τοῦ κλέος εὐρὺ καθ' Ἑλλάδα καὶ μέσον Ἄργος; literally "... of the man whose fame is widespread through Greece and middle Argos"; but presumably it means "Greece, and Argos which is at the middle of Greece". Not easy to turn that neatly into English.

But then, it's not a million miles from Middle Earth, I guess. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:22, 16 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it would be better to translate the title as: Rex leonum it has been translated this way into german,croatian etc.Zagrabiensis 17:49, 27 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

What about "II Rex Leo"(Latina) to reperesent "II Re Leone"(Itaillaino)? 68.220.174.8 15:31, 4 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

Latin has no definite article. Harrissimo 20:29, 4 Aprilis 2008 (UTC).

What does that mean? 68.220.174.8 15:31, 5 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

It means you can't say 'the' in Latin. But it is possible to use hic, ille and iste as quasi-substitutes. Harrissimo 15:46, 5 Aprilis 2008 (UTC).

New text

The new text was not in Latin. To avoid deleting it all, I have hidden it: it's still possible to work on it if anyone wants to. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:55, 21 Novembris 2008 (UTC)