Disputatio:Pronuntiatus Ecclesiasticus

Rescribenda

rescribire paginam istam propono. Etiam ego numquam de pronuntiationibus regionalibus ecclesiasticis (nisi gallica) audivi. Pronuntiatio tamen ti+vocalis omittitur. Mihi videtur ut recensores non IPAm cognoscebantur.

si rescribo et IPA utabor Cato censor 14:54, 21 Novembris 2008 (UTC)

Pronuntiationes regionales

Non habetur pronuntiatio regionalis nisi in gallia. Papa Pius X. definivit pronuntiationem exclusive per galliam quia gallicanismus deformaverat phoneticam. Papa Pius X. exprimivit desiderium restituendi linguam ecclesiasticam romanam (antiquam), quarum officium est munus peritorum.

IPA

Censeo Abecedarium Phoneticum Internationale esse utendum. -- en:User:Torzsmokus 80.99.12.190 15:43, 16 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)

Pronuntiatio

est vocabulum ecclesiasticum vel potius barbarum. Nonne hanc moveamus commentationem ad Appellatio Latina ecclesiastica?--Ceylon 19:56, 20 Aprilis 2008 (UTC)

h in vocabulis mihi et nihil littera h ut [k] vel [x] pronuntiatur, in ceteris vocabulis non pronuntiatur

vere est? --Massimo Macconi 20:29, 26 Septembris 2008 (UTC)

De pronuntiatio "Hispanica"

Inter nos Hispanos nunquam hunc pronuntiatium usui sunt, et nunquam istum audivi; Pronuntiatius ecclesiasticus in Hispania simul pronuntiatius Italicus est. --Xaverius 13:50, 8 Iunii 2009 (UTC)

Many people have betrayed the traditional pronunciation of their region, but this fact doesn't make the traditional pronunciations never-existing; otherwise, where would tables like this or this come from? Gabriel Svoboda 14:17, 8 Iunii 2009 (UTC)

In those articles, however, are they refering to the pronunciation of church latin per se? Or of secular new latin? Or just traditional latin pronunciation?--Rafaelgarcia 15:21, 8 Iunii 2009 (UTC)

You are right, these articles probably refer just to the general traditional pronunciation, which was both ecclesiastical and secular at the respective time. Nevertheless, I wanted to point out that the Spanish pronunciation as currently described in the article definitely is not non-existing: ergo, it should not be deleted, but rather moved, for example to Pronuntiatius Medii Aevi.
The problem is: do we have any reliable source to tell us where the traditional medieval pronunciation has been replaced with the Italian pronunciation and where it wasn't? Otherwise, the article will get flooded with original reserach: Xaverius will say Spanish clerks use the Italian pronunciation, I will say Slavic clerks use the Slavic pronunciation, etc. etc. Gabriel Svoboda 17:06, 8 Iunii 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard any latinist in Spain pronounce Latin this way - in fact, the section here is just stating current Spanish (peninsular) pronunciation. By Pronuntiatius Medii Aevi will you be referring to the pronunciation of Ibero-romance or regional variants of Latin in the Middle Ages? The line between those two is so thin is almost unexisting.--Xaverius 17:18, 8 Iunii 2009 (UTC)

Today there are only two pronunciations that are widespread: the traditional italian (ecclesiastical) and the reconstructed (academic); for example, in the US and Britain it is unusual for anyone to hear latin pronounced in the traditional british way of the poem en:The Motor Bus. However, that was the way all the way up to 1900 in many schools.--Rafaelgarcia 19:30, 8 Iunii 2009 (UTC)

The German 'ecclesiastical' pronunciation is actually quite alive still and commonly used by the Catholic church (and some other Latinists too) in most of Central Europe. As for the 'Motor Bus' poem, I very much doubt that it reflects an actual British pronunciation of any period. For instance, Motor Bi may be pronounced with a final [ai] in the poem (as it is in a lot of legal Latin jargon), but to my knowledge it has never been pronounced this way in the recitation of continuous Latin text.--Ceylon 06:31, 9 Iunii 2009 (UTC)

If there is such a discontinuity, Pronuntiatus Humanisticus might be a better title for the new article.
By my original research, in Czechia I have ever heard neither the Italian nor the reconstructed pronunciation. Gabriel Svoboda 19:59, 8 Iunii 2009 (UTC)

I would agree, but it is necessary to keep in mind that the humanists, especially Erasmus, were the ones that began the "campaign" to return to the reconstructed pronunciation which predated them in use. Perhaps, solemnis pronuntiatus linguae Latinae medaevalis humanisticaeque?--Rafaelgarcia 21:58, 8 Iunii 2009 (UTC)

Have you a citation for this bold claim? As far as I know Erasmus did not express an opinion on pronouncing Latin, much as he favoured a return to a more Classical Latin. The 'reconstructed' pronunciation is a very recent phenomenon. The Latin Parson Erasmus used on his rounds in his uncomprehending English parish would, I am certain, have been with a mediaeval pronuntiation spiked up with a strong Dutch accent.82.36.94.228 09:08, 12 Iulii 2009 (UTC)

That looks like the most accurate title. Gabriel Svoboda 05:50, 9 Iunii 2009 (UTC)