Disputatio:Proelium in Sacraliis

Proelium in Sacraliis fuit Translatio Hebdomadalis.

disputata

Estne hoc nomen bonum pro ar:معركة الزلاقة/en:Battle of az-Zallaqah? Anglice est "Battle at Slippery Ground", ita apellata est causa terrae sanguine turpatae.--Ioshus Rocchio 02:46, 17 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

IMHO,

1. It's not always the best policy to translate placenames, though it can sometimes be helpful.
2. In the English version it says: Christian sources know it as battle of Sagrajas which is a valuable clue.
3. This seems like a battle that would have been mentioned in a Latin source, so we are, I'm afraid, obligated to find one, before we can do much with this.

--Iustinus 03:36, 17 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

Vide paginam interretialem [1], ubi fontes Christianes dicuntur nomen "Sacralias" pro illo loco adhbuisse --Iovis Fulmen 08:12, 17 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is why I have put nothing but {{haecHebd}} and interwikis on the main page. So can we agree on Proelium Sacraliae?--Ioshus Rocchio 17:11, 17 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

In Wikipedia, "the Battle of Zalaca" (Proelium Zalacae?) appellatur. IacobusAmor 17:44, 17 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, I'm wondering what the correct idiom for "battle of x" in Latin is. I do note that s.v. Cannae on Perseus I can find loci classici for:

• Cannarum Pugna (Livius, Silvius)
• Cannensis Pugna, Pugna Cannensis (Livius)
• Cannensis clades (Livius)
• Cannensis acies (Livius)

There are also citations with ruina, calamitas, exercitus, etc. Odd that so many of them put the adjective (or genitive) first.

Perhaps we should look up one or two other famous battlefields and see what we get?

--Iustinus 18:12, 17 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

Good point—and come to think of it, the generic part of proper names often follows the distinctive part: Carolus Rex (King Charles), Aetna Mons (Mount Aetna), Quintus frater (my brother Quintus), and so on.

Here's the start of Pollio's letter to Cicero (early June, 43): Quo tardius certior fierem de proeliis apud Mutinam factis Lepidus effecit, qui meos tabellarios novem dies retinuit 'News of the battles at Mutina reached me later than it should[,] thanks to Lepidus, who held up my couriers for nine days' (Loeb text). IacobusAmor 18:58, 17 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

Augustus calls his affair at actium a war: "et me belli quo vici ad Actium ducem depoposcit" Res Gestae 25. Lucan calls Pharsalia an aemulatio. Having trouble finding directly named battles, as opposed to cleverly worded descriptions of battles.--Ioshus Rocchio 19:16, 17 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

Suggesting then, Iacobe, Proelium apud Zalacam?--Ioshus Rocchio 19:17, 17 Iulii 2006 (UTC)

In the Annales Catalani I found "Et ilium prelium de Sacralias fuit factum era milessima CXXXIIII" - of course the preposition "de" is by no means classical Latin. "apud" is a much better idea, but again for classical Latin a preposition cannot stand without a verb, i.e. "proelium apud Zalacam factum" (as in the Cicero quote--Iovis Fulmen 19:44, 17 Iulii 2006 (UTC)