Disputatio:Napoleo I (imperator Francogallorum)

Explanation

I moved this page, and cleaned up other related pages to standardise this name. I chose de Bonaparte because the original name did have the particle 'di', which we normally render de. It works better grammatically, too, considering what Bonaparte means (and meant in the original).

Finally, the ordinal number should not, I don't think, be used together with a surname. Pantocrator 01:01, 21 Februarii 2010 (UTC)

I think when both an ordinal number and a surname are used, it's true it shouldn't go after the surname; it should have been something like Neapolio I Bonaparte (indeed several of the Slavic Wikipedias, to judge by the interwikis, title it thus: Наполеон I Бонапарт). As for 'de', I don't know; it seems like it's supposed to be Bonaparte in French or di Buonaparte in the original Italian form; 'de Bonaparte' seems like a mixed translation. —Mucius Tever 02:21, 21 Februarii 2010 (UTC)

I prefer to stick with one or the other way - either surname or title, Neapolio de Bonaparte or Neapolio I (imperator Franciae). I don't see any compelling reason to mix them unless the surname was needed for disambiguation, which it surely isn't here.

As for de, not only does it match the convention but Italian di Buonaparte literally means 'of good stock/family', which is equivalently de Bonaparte in Latin (the genitive case is never used for names; de must be substituted). I know we don't normally translate surnames but in this case it works. Pantocrator 02:45, 21 Februarii 2010 (UTC)

The de only matches the convention if it is part of his usual name. Looking at the other Wikipedias, that seems not to be true. Most of them (including the Italian) call him Napoleon Bonaparte (treating him as a person with forename and surname). The minority call him Napoleon I (treating him as a monarch in a numbered sequence). I agree, as you say above, that the form we were using before was badly chosen -- a mixture of both -- but we should move to a more accurate form following one or other convention. Since he was fairly briefly (though notably) emperor, and was deposed, we could logically choose either. So, either N. Bonaparte or N. I (imperator Franciae). I say N. because I am not getting into the spelling of his forename: that is discussed below! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:50, 21 Februarii 2010 (UTC)

Fons nominis

Habemus fontem nominis Neapolio (contra Napoleo)? IacobusAmor 01:03, 21 Februarii 2010 (UTC)

Lege, Iacobe! Neapolio_de_Bonaparte#Nomen. Pantocrator 01:08, 21 Februarii 2010 (UTC)

It also shows up in the numismatics, e.g. [1] (on [2] which, to be fair, also has one or two with Napoleo). —Mucius Tever 02:12, 21 Februarii 2010 (UTC)

Do we know which form he preferred? The presence of Nea- & -poli- where other modern languages (including those of his empire) have Na- & -pole- leads one to worry that somebody fancied into existence a form that would invite a connection with the Greek words nea + polis. IacobusAmor 14:10, 21 Februarii 2010 (UTC)

Oh dear: "He spoke with a marked Corsican accent and never learned to spell properly" (En:Napoleon). IacobusAmor 14:29, 21 Februarii 2010 (UTC)

Si re vera "sapius" est "Napoleo" (ecce Napoleo Gallorum Imperator) nescio quid "Neapolio" praeferendum est.--24.183.186.151 15:48, 21 Februarii 2010 (UTC)

Ecce aliud: NAPOLEO ... Sed, sicut Mucius supra dixit, habemus in nummis duos "Neapoliones", duos "Napoleones". Possumus "Napoleonem" praeferre quia cum aliis linguis melius congruit ... re vera nescio. Volo paginam movere quia "de Bonaparte" est (nisi fallor) error. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:53, 8 Iunii 2010 (UTC)

"Emperor of the French"

I changed the latin form of the title of Napoleon. It was originally "imperator Franciae" of "Emperor of France." However, Napoleon was "Emperor of the French," "France" being "Francia" in latin, so it should take the plural 1st declension genitive ending "arom," or "imperator Franciarom." [anon]

Thanks for telling us. Your alteration was wrong because "imperator Franciarum" means "emperor of the Frances". But you may be right that a change was needed: perhaps someone else will comment on this. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:35, 22 Martii 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you're right about that translation, but then should the correct title in Latin not be "imperator Francorum," that, I believe, should be "Emperor of the French." [anon]

I believe you are right, but I cannot find via Google any evidence that he used this Latin title: examples of "imperator Francorum" all apply to other rulers (from Charlemagne to Louis XIV), not to Napoleon (except various Wikimedia pages, but "Wikipedia is not a reliable source"). So, for the moment, we'll make the change without indicating that "imperator Francorum" is an exact official form.

See what I have done now. If you can show actual evidence that he used the title "imperator Francorum", please tell us and we will add a footnote citation. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:31, 23 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I do not believe that Napoleon actually used the Latin title "Imperator Francorum" However, he did not use the English title "Emperor of the French" either. He used "Empereur des Français" because he was French. However, this page and wiki is in Latin and thus, the translation for "Emperor of the French" or "Empereur des Français" should be "Imperator Francorum." Napoloen's official title was: "Napoléon, par la grâce de Dieu et les Constitutions de la République, Empereur des Français." via: http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/napoleon.htm#naptitles —Usor sine nomine

De <<the translation for "Emperor of the French" or "Empereur des Français" should be "Imperator Francorum.">> Or it should be Francorum Imperator, as with Napoleon III, here and here and elsewhere. IacobusAmor 16:00, 23 Martii 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe word order matters that much in Latin. Thus, "Imperator Francorum" and "Francorum Imperator" are equivalent when it comes to Latin. However, according to: http://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/emperor.htm, it looks like "Imperator" was usually put before the name of the place, or people, in most imperial styles, but again, I believe this is subjective when it comes to Latin. Also, yes, Napoleon III was also "Emperor of the French," or "Imperator Francorum": http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/napoleon.htm#naptitles. So that should also be changed. Also, kings like Louis XVI held the title of "King of France," or "Rex Franciae" and later "King of the French," or "Rex Francorum," so that should be changed too? [anon]

Thanks for the citation for the French title "Empereur des Français". Sometimes Latin titles can be found in documents, but this will do nicely meanwhile! You're right, the word order is a secondary matter because word order is fairly free in Latin.

On the question of the earlier kings, you may well be right, but I am certain that Latin documents would also exist for that period and it would be best to find these if you can. Then, if necessary, we will make the corrections. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:56, 23 Martii 2011 (UTC)