Disputatio:Ioannes Gould

Redirect

The title Gould should NOT redirect here: it should redirect to a disambiguation page that distinguishes between this Gould and a much better-known Gould: Jay (Jason) Gould (1836–1892), the famous American financier. IacobusAmor 13:29, 10 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

• I've created the redirection from Gould because of the scientist (author) mentioned after animal species (by the time i finish with animals there should be a couple of hundred) only mention Gould, i like to see to maintain that, and mention the disambiguationpage at the beginning of the article, Hendricus 18:35, 10 Novembris 2007 (UTC)
  • By the way: I've never heard of him..Hendricus 18:42, 10 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

Nor I. I would have said John Gould the ornithologist is far more famous, and will be mentioned on many more pages. It might really be best to have Gould redirect here, and Gould (discretiva) deal with the others who share this surname (as is the case right now). But I leave it to you fellows. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:44, 10 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

Certainly musicians will hold two Goulds more famous than John the ornithologist: Glenn Gould the pianist and Morton Gould the composer. Anglicans who've never heard of the ornithologist will have heard of Sabine Baring-Gould, author of the words of two well-known hymns: "Onward, Christian soldiers" and "Now the day is over, night is drawing nigh." Those who follow biology in general (a field much bigger than ornithology), if asked to name a Gould biologist, won't name John the ornithologist, but will name the late Stephen Jay Gould. I see no reason, none whatsoever, to privilege John the ornithologist over these and other Goulds. IacobusAmor 01:38, 11 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

It's not a matter of who's more famous or who deserves the direct link, Gould just without initials is a abbrevation for John Gould, see at wikispecies Catalog Taxon authority at wikispecies], Hendricus 09:51, 11 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with that. If I want Sabine Baring-Gould or Stephen Jay Gould, I don't just type "Gould". And if by chance I do, I will find the link to the discretiva page, anyway. I think this way saves most time.

For such cases, English Wikipedia has a longer cross-reference formula: "xxxx redirects here. For other uses of the name xxxx, see xxxx (discretiva)." Would that help, maybe? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:21, 11 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

People get searched for by one name (usually the surname) quite often. So if we're thinking of a pianist like Gould, you want to trick us by sending us to the page for an obscure ornithologist? How about the pianist Hummel? He was the most famous of all Hummels two hundred years ago—but today, the most famous of all Hummels is the maker of ceramic figurines: you want to be consistent and make a search for "Hummel" send us to Maria Innocentia Hummel instead of Iohannes Nepomuk Hummel? These objects are never called "Maria Innocentia Hummel figurines": as with John Gould and his birds, only one part of the name—Hummel—is standard. IacobusAmor 12:45, 11 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

• Like i said befor Gould is not a surname it's an abbrevation, Hendricus 12:59, 11 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

To many—and I daresay the overwhelming majority of—users who might use the searchbox, Gould is a surname. I see you've done the same thing with Cuvier: presuming that you know which Cuvier all searchers will be looking for. IacobusAmor 13:13, 11 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

Starting to sounds like my wife, always wants the last word, (don't get this wrong - I love my wife), Hendricus 15:29, 11 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

I'm amazed that Iacobus considers Gould obscure, and I can think offhand of no other Cuvier except the naturalist. But I think this discussion needs to branch out from specific cases.

In the case of naturalists whose names authenticate scientific taxonomy, some of those names will be used a great deal in cross-references, and they are familiar to many people only in their curtailed form. So there is some argument for making a redirect from the standard curtailed form (as I made a redirect from L. and as Hendricus has made a redirect from Gould) direct to the person concerned, with an additional cross-reference line to other meanings that the same word or abbreviation may have, if any. I think we should admit that.

On the other hand, it is possible, when inserting these names on scientific pages, always to make it a piped link, thus and <nowiki>[[Carolus Linnaeus|L.]]. The end result is the same; but in this case, when you also make a redirect from Gould or from L., you can make it lead to a discretiva page. It isn't obvious that this is always the right answer; sometimes it will be, sometimes it won't.

I would say, it's not a question of presuming one knows what other people will do: it's a question of statistics and probabilities and least effort for most gain.

Re: "I'm amazed that Iacobus considers Gould obscure."—Until this discussion, I'd never heard of him. The Goulds I had heard of were: Chester, Elliott, Glenn, Jay (=Iason), Morton, Sabine Baring-, and Stephen Jay. Those are the Goulds I'd be likely to search for, and finding myself then cast up onto the page of an unwanted Gould should prove an annoyance. I reiterate: it's a safe bet that searchers for "Gould" will be looking for someone other than the ornithologist. This isn't a case like that of Cicero, under which name precious few users will be seeking Quintus Tullius Cicero. IacobusAmor 16:14, 11 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

And I learn now that there were two Cuviers! Vicipaedia never ceases to surprise me. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:52, 11 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

Well, Hendrice, it is possible after all, when you do any more Gould birds, to paste in the piped link [[Ioannes Gould|Gould]] each time; I see now you are doing this already. I guess, if Iacobus knows all those Goulds, others will know others still. So I have moved Gould (discretiva) to Gould.

When it comes to de Candolle, I wonder whether we'll get away with a straight DC.? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:43, 12 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

Ok with me, i just started Goldfuss, i couldn't get April straight away, i have to go for know, be back in an houre or two, Hendricus 16:51, 12 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

Studiosus, -i

Is this term attested for 'student'? Just checking. IacobusAmor 22:25, 13 Novembris 2007 (UTC)