Disputatio:Insula Desima

negotiatores

Is there anything>wrong< with negotiatores (businessmen)?--Jondel (disputatio) 07:38, 18 Novembris 2017 (UTC)

The word is OK. I didn't place the dubsig, but the question for me would be, how does the word fit into the sentence (subject, object or something else?) and so, what should the case ending be? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:20, 18 Novembris 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it's mostly a syntactical problem, the businessmen being an appositive of some unspecified adapted thing: Etiam est insula artificiosa anno 1634 exstructa, iussu shogun Iemitsu, et in principio accommodatum^? negotiatores^? Lusitanes = 'There's also an artificial island built up in 1634, by order of shogun Iemitsu, and in the beginning an adapted [neuter thing], the Lusitanes businessmen'. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:29, 18 Novembris 2017 (UTC)

It was meant to say:'It is also an artificial island built in 1634, by order of shogun Iemitsu, and in the beginning to accomodate[accusative neuter thing], the Portugues businessmen'. (later used by the Netherlandese traders).--Jondel (disputatio) 15:49, 18 Novembris 2017 (UTC)

"Lusitanes" isn't a possible form, and looks to me as though it needs to be in the same case as "negotiatores".

Where do we get the spellings "Dedzima" and "Desima"? The standard transliteration seems to be "Dejima". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:20, 18 Novembris 2017 (UTC)

Having asked this question, I thought a bit more and guessed that a Latin author might have made it "Decima insula", and I find via Google that this is true (p. 54 apud Google Books). I can also find "insula Dezima" (p. 137 apud Google Books). Should we move the page? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:23, 18 Novembris 2017 (UTC)

Decima was probably written by someone using the modern Italian pronunciation, for which Cicero's version (Vicipaedia's standard?) may have been Desima or Dezima. Of course if native speakers of Japanese pronounced it /dekima/ two millennia ago, then Decima might be a historically accurate Latin form. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:35, 18 Novembris 2017 (UTC)

The English wiki states:in old Western documents latinized as Decima, Desjima, Dezima, Disma, or Disima. The name is pronounced as 'dejima'. The 'j' sound in Japanese is often translitterated into z (or dz) in Latin. (If we follow this reasoning, Judo should probably be Zudo not Iudo and the island's name would >be< Dezima or Dedzima). --Jondel (disputatio) 15:43, 18 Novembris 2017 (UTC)

If we don't find a published Latin form of the name, we'd use the international standard (and for Japanese there is one, luckily), so probably no "dz". Remember that "latinized" in en:wiki probably doesn't refer to Latin language but to the Latin alphabet.

But, anyway, I've verified in real Latin sources two of those spellings that you list, so we can choose either of those (or any alternative that we find in Latin). Considering Iacobus's thoughts, and noting that "Decima" looks very Latin but deceptively so, I think I might choose "Dezima". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:16, 18 Novembris 2017 (UTC)

Noted about the 'latinized' alphabet. It's great that we have a source for "Dezima" (and consensus!)! I made changes as of this writing such as Lusitanos. I hope Iacobus's issues were addressed as well.--Jondel (disputatio) 23:31, 18 Novembris 2017 (UTC)