Disputatio:Hispania

Non Campus Stellae

Non Campus Stellae, Sed Composita Tella > Compost'Tella > Compostella. Videre Gran Enciclopedia Gallega.

Nomen "Regnum Hispanorum"

Non intellego qua de causa super signos (vexilla scutumque) "Regnum Hispanorum" scriptum est. Hispania tota peninsula erat (cum Lusitania etiam). Hodierno tempore Hispania significare "España" potuisset. Bene. Sed non Regnum Hispanorum. Qui hispani sunt? Qui e provincia Romana Hispania appellata veniunt aut ex hodierna "España"?. Gens catalaunensis vasconiensisque non hispani sibi sentiunt, et eos multi ceterorum Hispaniae civium haud populares (vel fratres Regionis) considerant.

Itaque melius "Regnum Hispaniae" appellari censeo. -- Usor:84.125.127.243

Regnum Hispanorum et Regnum Hispaniense et Regnum Hispanum omnes ut videtur grammatice sunt accepti. ¶ Vide infra: "Latin . . . does not normally use the appositional genitive of place-names, but puts the common noun and the place-name in apposition in the same case, as urbs Roma. [Non, care usor 84.125.127.243, urbs Romae.] The use of the genitive is poetic and post-Augustan." E. C. Woodcock, A New Latin Syntax (London, 1959, p. 53). IacobusAmor 15:45, 28 Iunii 2008 (UTC)

Verba 213.37.230.222

"Nationalismus populorum pueril morbus est" Albert Einstein.

All the citizens of Spain are Spaniards. Actually this is the definition of "Spaniard". Facts, not feelings.

Todos los ciudadanos de España son españoles. De hecho esa es la definición de "español". Hechos, no sentimientos.

Tots els ciutadans d'Espanya són Espanyols. No hi ha un altra deficició d'"espanyol". Fets, no sentiments.

scripsit Usor:213.37.230.222 --UV 22:10, 16 Octobris 2008 (UTC)

De provinciis

Nescio nomines ceterarum provinciarum, ergo creavit:

• Cuenca - Conca
• Badajoz - Pax Augusta(gentilitium est Pacenses)
• Orensem, Almeria, Albacetem et Pontevedram non mutavit

Pontevedra = Pons Vetus ("Pontevedra, or Pons Vetus (Spain)."—Encyclopædia Britannica). IacobusAmor 11:33, 15 Maii 2007 (UTC)

• Castellón - Castello
• Gran Canaria - ?

¿Cuál isla? Insula Teneriffa? Insula Canaria? Insula Fortaventura? http://www.oldworldauctions.com/Auction110/img_detail.asp?lotno=321&title=Insulae+Canariae&filename=110-321&usepage=False&strPath=E:\web\oldworldau1\htdocs\Auction110\lot_images\ IacobusAmor 11:38, 15 Maii 2007 (UTC)

Gran Canaria est insula per se--Xaverius 11:43, 15 Maii 2007 (UTC)

–Debeamus vero nomines invenire. --Xaverius 08:50, 15 Maii 2007 (UTC)

Mea sententia, pagina erat melior antequam nomines privinciarum addebantur. Nunc est magis difficile legere.Rafaelgarcia 13:28, 15 Maii 2007 (UTC)

Fortasse, sed puto nobis necesse esse.--Xaverius 19:26, 17 Maii 2007 (UTC)

De Insulis Canariis

Insulae Canariae duo provinciae sunt: Sancta Crux Tenerifis et Palmae.

Pintuaria nomen insulae Tenerife erat in Antiqua Roma

Grandis Canaria nomen insulae est et Palmae Grandis Canariae nomen urbis est capitalis insulaeque proviciae.

Alia Sancta Crux in (La) Palma insula habet.

Sancta Crux Tenerifis et Palmae Grandis Canariae capitalis autonomicae ex aequo sunt.

No te preocupes, usuario desconocido, que sé cuales son las islas, las provincias y las capitales de las Canarias ;-)--Xaverius 08:40, 14 Iunii 2007 (UTC)

Perdón, pero es que no veo ubi cunnus se firma esto :). Usor:Miguel A. Román 11:48 14 Iunii 2007 (UTC)

Nomina provinciarum Hispaniae hodiernae

Albacete - Albasitum

Badajoz - Pax Augusta vel Badaiocium

Cuenca - Conca vel Concha

Orense - Auria

Palencia - Pallantia vel Palantia

Pontevedra - Pons Vetus, sed forsitan etymologia vocis hispanicae e dictum "locus qui in Ponte Vetero vel Vetera est" (Ponte-vetera) perveniat; vobis memento hodie in Lusitana lingua (português) "ponte" femimei generis est (la ponte), dum hispanice manet, ut latina lingua, genus masculinum.

Canarias - Insulae Canariae vel Insulae Fortunatae

Gran Canaria - Magna Canaria

Valladolid - Pintia

Nomina sunt quae Romani iam habebant, itaque ea uti decet. Alia nomina civium posteriora sunt, et tum ad latinem sermonem fieri opus est. Verbi gratia: Almería (hispanice) Almeria (latine) potuisset.

Usor: Maximus D.M. 01:38 28 Iulii 2007 (HCE)

Lingua Catalana Valentianaque

A recent anonymous user added to the list of languages: Lingua Edetanensis, (Edetania) --? I cannot verify on the spanish language or english pages..--Rafaelgarcia 00:19, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheste has Edetania. I would have thought it would "Edetanica" like most other languages. It's highly unlikely we'll write about it anyway. It looks like a dialect of the old Iberian language, so Dialectus Edetanicus if we even need the link. --Harrissimo 00:53, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

--I had done that change in the page because in Valentia Edetanorum is not spoken Catalan, but Spanish, and Valentian people have another own language (properly said, idiom). I wait for your opinion. I didn´t enter my user name because I forgot it, excuse me. I don´t know the exact name for the Valentian language, might it be nova lingua Edetanica? --Gundisalvus 13:22, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I think Xavieri undid the change because Valentian is the same language as Catalan except it is refered to by a different name in Valencia.--Rafaelgarcia 13:40, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Yes, all sources available to me agree with Rafael's statement: Valencian is the same language as Catalan. Incidentally, "idiom" is not the right word in English. The distinction made by Spanish linguists between "lengua" and "idioma" does not exist in English (or in Latin!) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:54, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

--In which language was written Tirant lo Blanc? I think Wikipedia should be impartial. (Thanks for the distinction between lengua/idioma) --Gundisalvus 14:04, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Then please write the article on Tirant lo Blanc. I think Vicipaedia needs more articles! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:29, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

According to the english page en:Tirant lo Blanc: "Tirant lo Blanc is an epic romance written by the Valencian knight Joanot Martorell, finished by Martí Joan De Galba and published in Valencia in 1490. It is one of the best known medieval works of literature in the Catalan language, and played an important role in the evolution of the Western novel thanks to its influence on Cervantes...."

And according to the spanish page es:Valenciano: "Valenciano es la denominación histórica, tradicional y estatutaria que recibe en la Comunidad Valenciana la lengua que se denomina oficialmente catalán en Cataluña, Islas Baleares y Andorra. Constituye también una de las principales variantes dialectales de dicha lengua, junto con el catalán central y el balear, entre otras."

These sources agree with what Xavieri says, that it is just a different name for the same language.--Rafaelgarcia 15:11, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if the name of the language should be changed to lingua Catalana Valentianaque? Or is there an historical reason to prefer lingua Catalana?--Rafaelgarcia 15:14, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

It would be better if it is written in the way you have shown, in order to avoid useless arguments: lingua Catalana Valentianaque. It seems perfect. --Gundisalvus 15:28, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

No, that excludes Andorra, southern Roussillon and the Balearic Islands. It would have to be "lingua Catalana Valencianaque Andorranaque Ruscinonicaque Balearicaque". And that still excludes the Catalan speakers who live outside these regions -- and why shouldn't they?

The conceptual error is to suppose that languages ought to coincide with political names and boundaries. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:36, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

No, it is known that there is not such an Andorran, nor Ruscinonic. Balearic language is properly a dialectical form of Catalan. I think it is well as "Catalana Valentianaque". Spanish is said also the language spoken in, v.gr., Cuba. What I said in a first moment is only the existence of the Valentian language.--Gundisalvus 16:02, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

"it is known that there is not such an Andorran, nor Ruscinonic" How is that known? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:05, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Well, people in Andorra -even in the Rosellon- is usually emigrated from Catalonia, or vice versa, and the language brought is Spanish (and Catalan). It has no esentially differences, because no people of that group take classes of language, isn´t?.--Gundisalvus 16:12, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Oh, yes, they do! And it's wrong to say that the speakers in Andorra and Roussillon are recent migrants. They have spoken the language for as many centuries as people in Catalonia and Valencia, and written literature in it, too. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:17, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying that a man or a woman from Catalonia, when (s)he goes to Andorra take classes of "Andorran"? I didn´t know it. I was there in Andorra many years ago and I hadn´t heard a word of "Andorran". It is because of it why I said we should only to turn it into "Catalana Valentianaque". In Spain, it is a political weapon used by the Nationalists. Yours, --Gundisalvus 16:25, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

No, not that. I misunderstood. But does a Catalan-speaking person, when going to Valencia, needd to take lessons in Valencian? If so, there are differences after all, and we need a separate article on Valencian. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:28, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

It's obviously an issue of one language with two distinct names that are in common use versus two distinct languages. The spanish government seems to recognize both names as valid for a single language, but I think one needs to be wary since there may be politics involved. If someone can find evidence that the name Catalan for the one language predates the use of Valentiano then it would seem to be a good case for going with just Catalan for the language. But I think we should just consider philogogical and historical evidence, not political evidence or evidence that there are schools for a given language because that just means 'state sponsorship'. --Rafaelgarcia 16:36, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Agreed.

The name Catalan has many hundreds of years of history, very strong cultural tradition, very wide use all over the literature and all over the Web. The name Valencian has none of those things.

Anyone who studies Romance linguistics learns that there is a Valencian dialect of Catalan, like the Balearic and other dialects. But "Valencian" as an alternative name for the standard language is very new indeed, and not much accepted outside Spain. As I understand it (but others may disagree with this!) it is a political name, devised because some people in Valencia thought: "since we do not live in Catalonia, we should not call our language Catalan!" Hence my argument above about the conceptual error, and my reductio ad absurdum. Personally, as anyone can see, I'm against the proposed change: because I'm against political changes of names, and I don't think it makes sense to invent Latin equivalents for such changes. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:19, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Added a moment later: one quick example: Google "Catalan language" and you get 166,000; Google "Valencian language" and you get 942. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:23, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Valencian is the same language as Catalan, only Valencians call it this way. The situation is the same as with Malayan and Indonesian language which are the same, just the two different nations has given it two different names, and of course with some dialectal differences, but not even as many as to call it a dialect. --TheMexican ^(scribe!) 18:04, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that is a very close parallel! And the result of adding the new political names "Indonesian" and "Malaysian" was to leave the name situation even more confused, because the language as spoken in Singapore and in Brunei still has to be called "Malay".

However, I have to admit that in this case both of the new names, "Indonesian" and "Malaysian", are now accepted by nearly everybody. Judging by Google and other evidence, the name "Valencian" has not yet reached that stage of wide acceptance. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:14, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. And there is one more good example: Romanian and Moldavian, which are exactly the same language, however most people believe they are two different romance languages. The reality is that while Moldavia belonged to the Soviet Union, they used the Cyrillic alphabet to write in Romanian, that was the only reason for calling it Moldavian. But after getting independent, they changed their writing system to Latin alphabet, so there are no two languages and there never were. :)--TheMexican ^(scribe!) 18:43, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

And don't forget Dutch and "Belgian." IacobusAmor 12:46, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

The regulating institution of the valentian language says clairly in its official grammar that Valentian is the name of the Catalan Language in the region of Valencia. I am very glad that we have managed to solve this problem as normal people and not insulting and arguing endlessly as in es:wiki...--Xaverius 14:43, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

I fled from that Wikipedia because of that, Xaverius. Ô stultorum hominum mores!--Gundisalvus 14:47, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Catalana uel Valentiana

I have seen the change. I am glad to collaborate with this project. Isn´t the name for Valentia "Valentia Edetanorum"?--Gundisalvus 07:58, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Ut credo... we should only have Valentia with a redirect of Valentia Edetanorum to Valentia if you wish the long name. We are using short names in other cities. And Gundislave, despite the controversy, we are using as a convention the distinction between Vv and Uu, vide About Mores--Xaverius 14:47, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your message in my disputatio page. I am a 17-years-old who also lives (in a village) of Madrid. I am going to read about the writing habits and other subjects here. Ok, no problem. In my Latin daily handwriting I am used to write j/u/longa "s", etc., but I will use here this orthography shown. I have no problem about the name of Valentia. It is very well as already is said. By the way, congratulations for this. --Gundisalvus 15:02, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Bueno, estoy todavia por acabar Ultimi Philippinarum. Y yo soy de Madrid también! --Xaverius

Dic mihi res quas facere egoque possim ad tibi adiuvandum. --Gundisalvus 23:33, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Due to my ignorance on Latin language i will change only one think, the other will be let at your own decision, on this discussion.

The Capital of the autonomous region of the Canary islands is Palmae Grandis Canariae (Las Palmas de Gran Canaria) Sancta Crux Tenerifis is only the capital of one of the two provinces the region have, this is what i´m gonna change.

About "quorum 5 000 000 sunt Matritenses, 3 000 000 Barcinonenses, et 1 000 000 Valentiani" as cities Madrid have a population of 3.200.000, Barcelona 1.600.000 and Valencia 800.000. As urban regions: Madrid area have close to 6.000.000 people, Barcelona 5.400.000 and Valencia 1.600.000 choose which type is proper but i guess that should be taken as cities. User: MigeruMadorido at the: wikipedia en Español/Castellano

No sé hablar latín, pero entiendo perfectamente que pone que 6000000 de los habitantes son madrileños. Das al enlace y te lleva a la ciudad de Madrid... Elimino esta frase porque me parece falsar la realidad y ofender a las ciudades y pueblos que pertenecen a sus respectivas provincias.

De offendere nihil dico; licet enim nobis offendere si res veras scribimus.

De veritate autem fortasse recte mones. Quo iudicio 3,200,000 sunt "Matritenses", minime intellego. Oportet hanc rem aut explicare, aut aliis verbis exprimere. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:07, 23 Septembris 2011 (UTC)

Cur provinciae in genitivo?

Cur posuerunt nomina provinciarum in genitivo casu? Cur nonne in nominativo casu?--Rafaelgarcia 01:50, 23 Iunii 2008 (UTC)

Hic usus genitivi appellatus est "genitivus explicativus vel epexegeticus". Sin autem paginam creare volueris nominativo utens, facile erit redirectionem facere.--Iovis Fulmen 15:32, 28 Iunii 2008 (UTC)

Immo: "Where a geographical expression, such as 'city,' 'island,' 'promontory,' is defined in English by 'of' with a proper name, apposition is used in Latin. Thus—Urbs Veii, the city of Veii; insula Cyprus, the island of Cyprus; Athenas, urbem inclutam, the renowned city of Athens." Bradley's Arnold, #222. IacobusAmor 15:42, 28 Iunii 2008 (UTC)

Item. "Latin . . . does not normally use the appositional genitive of place-names, but puts the common noun and the place-name in apposition in the same case, as urbs Roma. The use of the genitive is poetic and post-Augustan." E. C. Woodcock, A New Latin Syntax (London, 1959, p. 53). IacobusAmor 15:45, 28 Iunii 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, well, we are post-Augustan, no doubt about that. Poetic? I'm not sure. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:56, 28 Iunii 2008 (UTC)

¿No es un poco tonto traducir los nombres propios? En cualquier caso si lo hacéis no os dejéis los apellidos porque si no queda todo muy chapucero. Por cierto, "Rodríguez" se traducía en latín medieval como Roderici, Zapatero... bueno, eso os lo dejo investigar a los expertos que yo de latín lo justito para entender un poco al leerlo.

Saludos.

Tonto o no, son las normas de la vicipaedia, traducir los nombres pero no los apellidos. Seguimos así la tradición de los latinistas modernos.--Xaverius 11:25, 7 Novembris 2008 (UTC)

Hispania (disambiguation)

Necesse est novam paginam, in qua appareant utraeque definitiones: Hispania -hodierna civitas- et Hispania -Romana provincia-, creare. Et legens scriptum sit qui premat utrumvis nexum ad paginam, quae cupienda sit. Quia, cum hodie quisquis putet Hispaniam, cogitat de Hispania Romana, non de hodierna civitate Europae, maxime apud latinam vicipaediam.--Imtoo 16:18, 23 Februarii 2009 (UTC)