Disputatio:Helsingia (Finnia)

Finnia vs. Finlandia

Differencia est? GiovaneScuola2006 10:42, 26 Octobris 2006 (UTC)

Page Finnia says Finnia sive Finlandia. I realized that some minutes ago, when I created "Categoria:Urbes Finlandiae" and saw that there is a category "Finnia" (later). I am interested in an answer to your question as well. --Roland (disp.)

I think the names "Helsinkium" and "Finnia" tend to be preferred to "Finlandia" and "Helsingia" because they're more Finnish and less Swedish and there is some resentment against the Swedish language in Finland. See en:Finland's language strife en:Fennoman movement and en:Mandatory Swedish for more info.

Hej Aaker, varken Finnia eller Finlandia låter särskilt finska, men du har säkert rätt däri att Helsinkium är en förkonstling som syftar på att avskaffa svenska spår i det finska samhället. Själv skulle jag nog föredra Helsingia eller Helsingforsia. Som ett ytterligare exempel kan jag nämna Turku / Åbo: Det heter numera Universitas Turkuensis i st f Aboensis. Och till råga på allt: Det heter numera Turkua i st f Aboa bland finskspråkiga klassiker. Själv gillar jag inte alls den här utvecklingen, men sanningen är att i och med att klassiska institutionen vid Åbo Akademi slopades för några år sedan har den svenskspråkiga undervisningen i latin praktiskt taget trutit, tyvärr. --Neander 04:29, 8 Martii 2009 (UTC)

Grammar question

Aside from lateness of est here, I'm wondering about the grammar of

Urbs . . . 562'570 incolarum est.

and

Area . . . 1'293'093 incolarum (quartum incolarum Finniae) est.

Does that syntax work in Latin? A "literal" translation is unacceptable in English ("The city is 562,570 of inhabitants" ~ "The city is the inhabitants' 562,570"). Not that that's a certain guide, but it does make one wonder. Since the illustrated pattern turns up in other articles too, this question may be larger than it looks. IacobusAmor 12:36, 27 Octobris 2006 (UTC)

Would this be better in English? "It is a city of 562,570 inhabitants." Could it be a genetivus qualitatis? --Roland (disp.) 12:45, 27 Octobris 2006 (UTC)

"The Genitive is used to denote Quality, but only when the quality is modified by an adjective" (A&G #345). Maybe by a stretch of the imagination, an inhabitant could be conceived as a unit of measure, so this genitive could be taken for the Genitive of Measure: "The genitive of quality, with numerals, is used to define measures of length, depth, etc." (A&G #345b). How long is an inhabitant?! IacobusAmor 13:33, 27 Octobris 2006 (UTC)

The construction Roland is thinking of is a "genitive of description." I'm running out the door right now, so I can't really check if that's the right construction for this context, but it's definitely a valid construction. --Iustinus 20:20, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

What about "The number/amount of citizens in the city [Helsinkium] is ******."? --BiT 21:58, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

There must be a classical idiom for this idea. English 'population' is populi frequentia, so maybe, in the present example: "Populi frequentia est 562,570." IacobusAmor 23:07, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

Helsinkium vs. Helsingia

Where on Earth does that name "Helsinkium" come? I have not heard of that name anywhere but here in Vicipædia. IMO Helsingia is a lot better (it is btw a lot more established, eg. "Universitas Helsingiensis", not Helsinkiensis), even if it is a homonym with the Latin name of Hälsingland.

And Vantania, WTF is that? :D 153.1.21.18 15:42, 28 Novembris 2006 (UTC)

It's the only translation given by a recent Finnish-Latin dictionary. Including the letter K, the word seems kind of "anti-Latin", but... --81.197.26.33 18:28, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

I'd be interested to know Finns pronounce Helsinki. Could a Finnish-speaker please tell us? We might want to pronounce Latin Helsinkium something like [hɛlsiŋkium] and Helsingia [hɛlsiŋia]. For me, the preferred spelling of the Latin may depend on how Finns pronounce the Finnish. IacobusAmor 18:54, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

Finnish is pronounced "as written", [hɛlsiŋki]. Nuntii latini seems to use that new form [1]. --81.197.26.33 21:11, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Then why isn't the noun Helsinci, -orum (pl.), like Athenae, -arum? IacobusAmor 22:59, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

'Cause that'd just be weird.  ;) The question is why it isn't Helsinki, -is following the rules we found asserted to apud eos solere when researching Finno-Latin stuff for Aquilo (Kalevala). —Mucius Tever 23:57, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

Move?

Helsingia seems to be more used in Latin than Helsinkium (en:University of Helsinki for example, uses Universitas Helsingiensis). I haven't seen the latter form anywhere but at Vicipaedia and it looks like a fennicization IMO. What do you think?? Aaker 19:51, 23 Augusti 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Latin is not a politically correct language; it doesn't need to replace its traditional proper names taken from languages of former rulers with those "respecting" newly independent peoples. And Google speaks clearly: Helsingiensis 11 000 hits, Helsingforsiensis 664 hits, Helsinkiensis 588 hits. But interestingly, according to Google Books we should go for even more Swedish-like Helsingforsia: Helsingforsiensis 731 hits, Helsingiensis 671 hits, Helsinkiensis 179 hits. This is also supported by Google Helsingforsiae 2 200 hits, Helsingiae 669 hits, and Google Books Helsingforsiae 777 hits, Helsingiae 611 hits. Gabriel Svoboda 06:43, 24 Augusti 2009 (UTC)

Interesting research. Since Google Books is likely to favour older sources, and we are talking mainly about modern geography here, I suggest we give more weight to Google rather than Google Books. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:56, 24 Augusti 2009 (UTC)

Paginam movi (ut potui) et nugas apud Graesse praebitas (puta, "Helsingissa" est casus inessivus perperam intellectus) delevi. --Neander 00:01, 11 Septembris 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, but it is better to move pages by clicking on movere. What you have done is just a quasi-move — copying the text of one page and inserting it into another. The problem of such quasi-moves is that we lose the history of the page — currently on the page Helsingia (Finnia), no-one sees any more what was contributed by whom and when. On Helsinkium, the history is preserved and it will be preserved even under the new title after clicking on movere. Ergo, not Helsinkium, but Helsingia (Finnia) shall be deleted, and Helsinkium shall be moved to its place. (Of course, if there is any extra content on Helsingia (Finnia) not present on Helsinkium, it should be copied there first.) I will move the page myself — OK? Gabriel Svoboda 07:49, 15 Septembris 2009 (UTC)

Thanks and sorry! My administrative skills are below all standards. --Neander 19:01, 16 Septembris 2009 (UTC)