Disputatio:Hebdomas

Ordo dierum

Usor quidam anonymus vult mutare ordinem, praeponens diem Lunae, annuente organizatione ISO (vide Disputatio Usoris:88.112.110.144). Alii quid cogitant? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:18, 13 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

[Addo commentum a IacoboAmore scriptum:] I've always regarded Monday as the first day of the week, but most Americans regard Sunday as the first day of the week, as do most Christians, taking their cue from the Bible (Matthew 28:1), which point-blank says the day on which Jesus rose from the dead was "the first day of the week," a day that from the beginning they've celebrated as Sunday. Oddly, Polynesian languages, though heavily influenced by Christian missionaries, conform to the ISO (secular) pattern: in Samoan, the word for Tuesday, Aso Lua, translates literally as 'Day Two'; and in Hawaiian, the word for Monday, Pō‘akahi, translates literally as 'Day One', leading to the absurdity that the name of the Seventh-Day Adventist religion in Hawai‘i is Ho‘omana Pō‘ōno—literally, 'Sixth-Day Religion'! IacobusAmor 17:21, 13 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

The Portuguese disagree with the Polynesians (and with ISO for that matter). To them, Monday is pt:Segunda-feira (2nd day), and so on up to Friday (6th day).

The Greeks too. In Greek, Monday is el:Δευτέρα (2nd). Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:38, 13 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Well, we go with ISO pretty much everywhere else. Let's go with it and make a footnote. I've never understood Sunday being the first day of the week, myself...isn't it part of the weekend?--Ioscius ^(disp) 19:35, 13 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, the naming of the days of the week and deciding which one is first are all highly culturally dependent. In roman tradition, the first day is sunday, which explains why the first day is named solis and the second lunae, i.e. after the brightest and second brightest objects in the sky. That order also explains alot of statements in the bible and ancient latin-language texts relating to the days of the week. So all things being equal I would rather stick to that and just explain how the order depends on culture and religion. On the other hand, I personally I favor the 13 month calendar proposed a century ago, in which every month had 28 days and began on a monday, but that is separate issue :-)--Rafaelgarcia 20:20, 13 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

And besides, this isn't about who regards which day to be the first. This is about settign things straight, meaning using the international system (ISO 8601). 88.112.109.188 16:55, 14 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

I kind of agree with anonymous. As I said, we use ISO pretty much everywhere else...--Ioscius ^(disp) 16:59, 14 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with the implication that the ISO rules humanity, "straight", one size must fit all. That's a bit too theocratic for me. I'm an atheist, with a touch of anarchy, and that's why I like multiple wikipedias with multiple approaches to straightness. If the Thai wikipedia can follow its own calendar (as others too, no doubt), I don't see why Vicipaedia can't decide for itself which day begins the week. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:12, 14 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous' statement that this is about "getting things right" suggests that somehow the roman ordering is "wrong". I disagree with that, although by reading more about the ISO and the history of the roman innumeration of days I'm inclined to agree with Ioscius that it would be best for us to go with that.

My point is that there is no scientific way to determine which day of the week is first and thus there is no right or wrong way, except by reference to a particular culture and/or set of values. For religious people their particular religion may set the mark, for others the mores of the country they live in. ISO was developed by computer programmers and scientists to have a standard way of referencing times and dates across the world for astronomy, climatology, geology and other such purposes. It is hardly any more correct that the roman way or the French way or the Italian way.

Having thought over the advantages, however, I'm inclined to agree that the ISO would be good for us to adopt. The roman method of numbering and ordering the days of the week changed quite a bit over time and so this would bring up the issue of which ordering or length of the week to use (romans used 8 week days for a time). Rather than face that complication I would have us stick to ISO.--Rafaelgarcia 17:53, 14 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

My political and religious convictions nearly match your own, Andrew, so I feel your hesitance. I certainly shy away from any one organization dictating the way we should do things. I think in cases like this, however, such as the point/comma decimal, ISO is a good neutral way to resolve matters. It has no political or religious association, and in this instance we are discussing in essence a matter of one of those: does the ordering of the day have to do with Roman religion/state policy, Christian theology, or a European/American preference?

I also agree with you wholeheartedly that one of the joys of our Wiki is that we are free to approach things differently. I have often argued for that in the past, for instance regarding VP:TNP, and elsewhere. In this case, though, I am somewhat attracted to conceding to ISO in that 1) it does make us unique in a sense (en for instance does not enforce an ISO policy) and 2) it solves an issue with no political or religious tint.

All of that said, I don't care a whole heck of a lot about this one issue (not like my abhorrence of the decimal comma or my nuntius/nuntium white whale). --Ioscius ^(disp) 18:07, 14 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

I must admit I'm with you on the last point (three points) ... I'm just playing Devil's advocate really. I'll go with Monday. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:14, 14 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Does ISO say something concerning the decimal marker: comma versus point?--Rafaelgarcia 20:32, 14 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

On German wikip I found "it must be comma according to ISO 31-0". Heute wird Komma als Dezimaltrennzeichen von ISO 31-0 International zwingend vorgeschrieben. --Alex1011 21:49, 14 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

It's annoying that the ISO website requires one to pay for access to each of its documents....making them inaccessible to the public. --Rafaelgarcia 23:32, 14 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

See free information here:

• Nexus ISO de diebus scribendis
• Nexus NoviZelandiensis de diebus scribendis per ISO--says both decimal comma and point are allowed.--Rafaelgarcia 02:20, 15 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Exemplum confusum nobis dant linguae Slavonicae. In his linguis Dies Mercurii appellatur 'medium' (Ruthenice: среда, cf. Theodisce Mittwoch). Hoc significaret diem solis esse primum. Nomina autem dierum Martis, Iovis en Veneris derivantur a numeris 'duo', 'quattuor' et 'quinque' (Ruthenice: вторник, четверг, пятница). Hoc significaret diem lunae esse primum. Quod nobis docet ordo ISO non esse tam novus quam nonnulli putare videantur. --Fabullus 14:35, 16 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Week vs Hebdomas

I took out the claim that a "hebdomas" may have more or less than seven days, because it's sourced to the OED, which is talking about extended meanings of the word "week", not "hebdomas". Maybe "hebdomas" can have that meaning, but we need a source that says so. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:12, 25 Martii 2012 (UTC)