Disputatio:Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows

"Harrius Potter et Mortales Insigniae ultimo libro est."

'Harry Potter and the Mortal Tokenses is the last book'.—Surely this statement is going to become a lie: many books will be published after this one. Also: is Mortales Insigniae [sic] really the best translation of 'Deathly Hallows'? IacobusAmor 13:08, 12 Maii 2007 (UTC)

According to pt.wiki, the Portuguese translation is apparently going to be Harry Potter e as Insígnias Mortais [1]; the Catalan wiki doesn't mention what the title might be, and the Italian and the Spanish decline to speculate (the Spanish more so, as Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince got translated into "Harry Potter and the Mystery of the Prince"). Most of the wikis are apparently still using the English title. If we're going to speculate, Insignia Mortalia is probably it, based on the existing pt evidence, but that's just a thing I'd throw VP:TNP at. —Mucius Tever 15:01, 12 Maii 2007 (UTC)

So the English word saints can be rendered in Portuguese as Insígnias? Hmm. IacobusAmor 19:37, 12 Maii 2007 (UTC)

It's not saints. It's hallows. IMO a more likely meaning of hallows in this context (assuming it refers to ‘Horcruxes’) is relics. The Portuguese translator in the interview I linked suggests similarly that 'saints' is not intended: "Hallows no plural significa entre muitas coisas os deuses pagãos e seus lugares de culto. Como no sétimo livro Harry estará procurando as outras horcruxes, faria sentido procurar nos lugares mais prováveis, não?" —Mucius Tever 01:28, 16 Maii 2007 (UTC)

Insigniae = 'Tokenses': double plural to match the Latin. ::winkwink:: IacobusAmor 13:08, 12 Maii 2007 (UTC)

"Harrius Potter et Mortales Insigniae est ad hodiernum diem ultimus liber Ioannae Rowling in serie Harrio Potter. . . ."

This is closer to the truth, but what are these mortal markses, signses, tokenses (Mortales Insigniae)? Hallows are saints (hence All-Hallows eve = halloween = the day before All-Saints' Day). So, for 'deathly hallows', a reasonable guess would be sancti lethiferi. (The word hallows could be a pun, referring both to saints and to the pieces of rabbits that are fed as a reward to the hounds after a successful hunt; I don't know what the best strategy for signaling that in Latin would be.) IacobusAmor 19:37, 12 Maii 2007 (UTC)

I moved the title to the English name until we know what she really meant. "Deathly" is another tricky word... it can be deadly (death-dealing, lethifer) or death-like (e.g. a deathly silence). --Mucius Tever 23:15, 19 Maii 2007 (UTC)

What does the title mean?

By the way, now that the book is out, we can safely say that "Deathly Hallows" means "Magical Artifacts of Death (Personified)" --Iustinus 21:41, 27 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

OK. But what are "artifacts of death"? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:12, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

You mean in Latin? --Iustinus 09:46, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I mean, what does it mean? "Things manufactured by Death"? Is that it? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:26, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

OK, OK, someone's tried to explain it to me. Perhaps not "artifacts of death" so much as "deadly artifacts", "artifacts guaranteeing death". Have I got it now? I did wonder what this phrase could possibly mean. Maybe she liked the sound of "deathly" more than "deadly", never mind the sense. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:37, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Reliquiae illae mortem non praestant, immo vero Mors (vel hero vel deus) eas aut creavit aut certe possidet. Momentum earum in fabula (vel mythistoria) est ut, siquis eas solus possidet, is est dominus mortis (i.e. status absentiae vitae); nam sunt III res: invisibilitatis amiculum, baculum magicum potentissimum, lapis vitae restituens; quibus usus -in fabula- mortem administrare, ipse evadere mortem potest.--Iovis Fulmen 11:29, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Igitur fortasse re vera "Things manufactured by Death". Gratias tibi ago, Fulmen! Sed hanc rem relinquo vobis qui opera auctoris profunde cognovistis ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:45, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

So in keeping with the English, the Latin should perhaps be an odd-looking but vaguely intelligible noun formed from the root SACR or SANCT. So are 'hallows' sacramina (vel consecramina), sanctabula, or what? And are 'deathly hallows' then (with the dative of reference) morti sacramina etc., or what? IacobusAmor 12:04, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

It's kind of both: artifacts which according to legend were created by Death himself, and artifacts which have power over death unpersonified. Sacramina is a really clever suggestion, but as difficult as it will be to translate, I don't think we need to make somethign up. --Iustinus 16:18, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)