Disputatio:Castra carceralia
Latest comment: abhinc 15 annos by Tergum violinae in topic Lemma
Lemma recensere
Do we really need to use such a cumbersome piece of Ciceronian for this idea? If every single European language uses the word concentration, why not Latin? We're not Ancient Romans. Castrum Concentrationis, or Concentrativum, or Concentrationale would be instantly recognisable. Also, they were a feature of the Secundum Bellum Mundale, not the Alterum Bellum Orbis Terrarum Gestum. I think two words for five is always a good rule. Tergum violinae 20:24, 3 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
- Alterum is quite correct for "second of two"; let's hope there will be no third. But on your main point, I agree the phrase is much too long. It reads like a dictionary definition, not a translation.
- I quote OED: "a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated, such as those instituted by Lord Kitchener during the South African War of 1899-1902; one for the internment of political prisoners, foreign nationals, etc., esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the war of 1939-45". I think "castra concentrationis" might be good. See Google. The pages that Google turns up, oddly enough, use the phrase "campus concentrationis" (which seems a bad choice to me), but they also use "castra" as a synonym within the same paragraph. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:38, 3 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
- Quid est haec radix arcana concentr-? Hoc con- agnovimus, conversionem praepositionis cum. Sed centr-? Quid significat? ¶ Si volumus convertere verbum Anglicum 'to concentrate', sane commoda verba Latina sunt conligere, contrahere, et in unum conferre. ¶ Hey! With good Latin economy, we should be able to find a single word to do the trick! In the Gallic war, Caesar is forever going on about his hiberna, -orum (scil., castra, -orum), his winter quarters, using a term identical with the ordinary adjective hibernus, -a, -um 'wintry, of winter, like winter, for the winter'. Given that pattern, we want an adjective referring to the act or idea of concentrating (focusing, localizing, drawing together, constricting, constringing, collecting, gathering, congregating, aggregating, amassing, assembling, mustering, clustering, cloistering, crowding, confining, etc.), and we can use it with castra implied (unstated). What might that adjective be? IacobusAmor 22:07, 3 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
- Radix non est arcana, quamvis amici tui Caesar et Cicero ignari erant talium rerum. "Centrum", ut puto te inventurum esse, est vocabulum Latinum Mediaevale, a lingua Graeca ductum, significans medium punctum pyxidis nauticae. "Concentrare" iccirco significat "attrahere ad centrum". Tergum violinae 09:50, 4 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
- OK, I'll offer one. From custodire 'to guard, watch, keep', we have custoditus, -a, -um 'guarded, watched over, kept'; ergo, we could assume the existence of custodita, -orum (scil., castra, -orum) 'concentration camp'. This will of course be distinct from custodia, one of whose attested senses (in Caesar & Cicero) is 'prison'. Granted, custodita starts out as a participle, rather than an adjective (strictly defined), but the syntax of the new word (phrase) would be similar. IacobusAmor 22:23, 3 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
- [My message coincided with Iacobus but here it comes:] I agree with Tergum violinae and Andrew that "Castra ad captivos concludendos posita" is a cumbersome piece of Schoolmasterese (rather than Ciceronian style, though), and I'm almost ready to go for castra concentrationis as an expedient. However, there's another term that is worth considering, and that is castra carceralia, which brings home the idea of a closed camp. Let me quote a textual piece from a report by Reijo Pitkäranta: "Septentrionalis Corea est civitas Stalinistica, in qua condiciones vitae sunt miserabiles. Compertum est a profugis ibi esse castra carceralia, peiora quam Auschwitz, in quae captivi politici mitterentur" (Nuntii Latini 24.1.2003). --Neander 22:30, 3 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, that's quite fine; but in keeping with Caesar's usage, we don't need the castra, do we? This carceralia by itself can suffice. ¶ Why is it carceralia instead of carceraria? Only the latter is classically attested in ordinary use, if Cassell's is to be believed. IacobusAmor 22:35, 3 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
- I'd begin with castra carceralia but later in the text I might drop out castra, when the idea has become clear. ¶ Carceralia is presumably due to dissimilation for the sake of euphony (as floralia instead of *floraria). Carcerarius is seldom attested as an adjective, it's mostly a substantive denoting 'carceris custos'. --Neander 22:52, 3 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
- OK, let's start with castra carceralia then, not least because it's attested; and let's feel free to go on to call it a plain carceralia, -ium wherever the sense is clear. Does everybody agree now? IacobusAmor 03:45, 4 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
- Seems fine. The analogy with "floralia" is amusing ... We will only stumble if there is a friendly regime somewhere that maintains a chain of "prison camps" and also a chain of "concentration camps". We can deal with that when we get to it, I guess! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:24, 4 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
- Ita, paginam movebo.--Xaverius 09:17, 4 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
- Seems fine. The analogy with "floralia" is amusing ... We will only stumble if there is a friendly regime somewhere that maintains a chain of "prison camps" and also a chain of "concentration camps". We can deal with that when we get to it, I guess! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:24, 4 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
- OK, let's start with castra carceralia then, not least because it's attested; and let's feel free to go on to call it a plain carceralia, -ium wherever the sense is clear. Does everybody agree now? IacobusAmor 03:45, 4 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
- I'd begin with castra carceralia but later in the text I might drop out castra, when the idea has become clear. ¶ Carceralia is presumably due to dissimilation for the sake of euphony (as floralia instead of *floraria). Carcerarius is seldom attested as an adjective, it's mostly a substantive denoting 'carceris custos'. --Neander 22:52, 3 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, that's quite fine; but in keeping with Caesar's usage, we don't need the castra, do we? This carceralia by itself can suffice. ¶ Why is it carceralia instead of carceraria? Only the latter is classically attested in ordinary use, if Cassell's is to be believed. IacobusAmor 22:35, 3 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
- [My message coincided with Iacobus but here it comes:] I agree with Tergum violinae and Andrew that "Castra ad captivos concludendos posita" is a cumbersome piece of Schoolmasterese (rather than Ciceronian style, though), and I'm almost ready to go for castra concentrationis as an expedient. However, there's another term that is worth considering, and that is castra carceralia, which brings home the idea of a closed camp. Let me quote a textual piece from a report by Reijo Pitkäranta: "Septentrionalis Corea est civitas Stalinistica, in qua condiciones vitae sunt miserabiles. Compertum est a profugis ibi esse castra carceralia, peiora quam Auschwitz, in quae captivi politici mitterentur" (Nuntii Latini 24.1.2003). --Neander 22:30, 3 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
- Quid est haec radix arcana concentr-? Hoc con- agnovimus, conversionem praepositionis cum. Sed centr-? Quid significat? ¶ Si volumus convertere verbum Anglicum 'to concentrate', sane commoda verba Latina sunt conligere, contrahere, et in unum conferre. ¶ Hey! With good Latin economy, we should be able to find a single word to do the trick! In the Gallic war, Caesar is forever going on about his hiberna, -orum (scil., castra, -orum), his winter quarters, using a term identical with the ordinary adjective hibernus, -a, -um 'wintry, of winter, like winter, for the winter'. Given that pattern, we want an adjective referring to the act or idea of concentrating (focusing, localizing, drawing together, constricting, constringing, collecting, gathering, congregating, aggregating, amassing, assembling, mustering, clustering, cloistering, crowding, confining, etc.), and we can use it with castra implied (unstated). What might that adjective be? IacobusAmor 22:07, 3 Februarii 2009 (UTC)
Fortasse "concenturiatio" est vocabulum quod volebat Kitchener?Tergum violinae 11:55, 4 Februarii 2009 (UTC)