Disputatio:Castellum Sumter
Latest comment: abhinc 15 annos by Rafaelgarcia
Somehow this does not look like a citadel (arx). I thought it was a fort (castrum). I find our pages on this subject are all mixed up, including the interwikis.--Rafaelgarcia 14:40, 18 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- L&S:castrum="castrum, i, n. kindred with casa, q. v.. I In sing., any fortified place; a castle, fort, fortress (more rare than castellum)"--Rafaelgarcia 14:43, 18 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- That could be, but we've long accepted Arx Vainensis for 'Fort Wayne' and Arx Vorthensis for 'Forth Worth'. It's a good question though, because the United States has dozens of cities and military installations whose names follow this pattern (having fort as their first word and the surname of a famous person as the rest of their name), so the term is consequential, and the pattern should be regularized. IacobusAmor 14:48, 18 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- For sure, since arx, castellum, burgus, pugnaculum, and propugnaculum each are species of castra, if any one word should be chosen, castrum ought to be the word.--Rafaelgarcia 15:06, 18 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- I see that Europe has numerous places whose first word is Castrum ; however (to judge by the articles already in Vicipaedia), the rest of the pattern differs from that in the United States, as the second European word tends to be the name of a place or a population, not the name of a person. Also, is it obvious that castra is the general term? After all, it basically means 'tents' ('the covering things'), so, as White's dictionary says, castra = "(Several soldiers' tents together; hence) A military camp, an encampment," which isn't quite what the military installation in question is. FWIW, Ainsworth's dictionary defines 'fort' as (the terms in this order): propugnaculum, munimentum, praesidium, castellum. IacobusAmor 15:20, 18 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- Castra in the plural was a terminus technicus of the Roman Military meaning camp; besides the etymology with casa you indicated above, the term also being justified by the fact that their camps would usually be surrounded by bulwarks and fortifications of various kinds. This does not undo the fact that castrum (sing. and plural) specifically means all kinds of fort. For tent, the proper specific word I think is tentorium, although tabernaculum was often used in this sense by romans and is considered correct (I read that the term actually originates from the fact that small shelters and market shops were typically set up by putting up some boards (tabula); think farmer's markets).--Rafaelgarcia 15:36, 18 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- Vide Disputatio Formulae:Fortificationes--Rafaelgarcia 18:33, 18 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- After many thoughts back and forth, I think following Ainsworth in adopting propugnaculum for a modern fort is best, since it coincides with our one source of 18th century American Latinity, namely Franis Glass--Rafaelgarcia 00:36, 19 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- I think it is the lack of any tower structure, common to all castella wherefore that Glass and other 18th century people named these structures, propugnacula rather than castella. Rather than widening the concept of castellum to any walled fortification, I think it is better to follow Glass's example of naming Fort Washington as Propugnaculum Washingtonium.--Rafaelgarcia 14:37, 24 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, well, maybe I misinterpreted notions written above. I've just made the names & titles consistent as Castellum Sumter, but that can be temporary until we see what other considerations (and recommendations from other vicipaedians) come into play. I'm not supporting any particular wording, but consistency of style is a virtue, and the names & titles are consistent right now. IacobusAmor 17:00, 24 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- If a structure such as Fort Sumter had been built by the romans they would have called it "castra Sumter", but the name does not fit within the history of military fortifications. Francis Glass who lived in the period just before the civil war would have called it Propugnaculum Sumter.
- A castellum in Caesar's terminology is a en:redoubt, that is a small fortification outside of the main force or camp, a burgus an even smaller one usually located near the frontier to watch the border. A redoubt by its nature is not independent but functions in connection with a main fortress or camp. From the point of view of local inhabitants, these fortifications were the seat of government power. Thus in the middle ages they developed into the places where nobles lived. The camps became fortified towns, the castella and burgi became associated stone castles where nobles of various ranks would live, from which they would rule the surrounding countryside.
- The development of artillery and firearms changed the landscape completely, because the traditional castle walls and towers could not defend against them and mobility became a key element in warfare. Fortifications focused on affording defending troops cover from incoming artillery and denying advantages to the attackers. For permanent sea facing fortifications, towers being vulnerable to cannon artillery were now avoided in favor of trenches, thick stone walls, and bunkers. For frontier locations, where cannon were not an issue, simple wooden walls in a dominating position suffice. In both cases, it was the rampart and bulwark that became the dominating feature rather than impressive stone walled towers, moats and parapets. Furthemore, the entire politcal structure changed; the gun allowed the quick training of new recruits; professional soldiers as a ruling class disappeared. Instead of arx "refuge for city folk in time of war" and castellum "power centers", forts became "places where to train and house new recruits" often lacking much in the way of fortifications.
- Propugnare = "to fight on the defensive"; Propugnaculum ="a place from which one can fight on the defensive". Was evidently judged by Glass and Ainsworth to adequately encompass this new idea of what a fort was.--Rafaelgarcia 18:35, 24 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- After considering my comments further, I'd like to leave this as Castellum Arx. I've rewritten the page on Castrum to include a new category castellum maritimum. Including Fort Sumpter this would include en:Martello Tower (a lot like a Roman burgus)--Rafaelgarcia 17:58, 25 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, well, maybe I misinterpreted notions written above. I've just made the names & titles consistent as Castellum Sumter, but that can be temporary until we see what other considerations (and recommendations from other vicipaedians) come into play. I'm not supporting any particular wording, but consistency of style is a virtue, and the names & titles are consistent right now. IacobusAmor 17:00, 24 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- I think it is the lack of any tower structure, common to all castella wherefore that Glass and other 18th century people named these structures, propugnacula rather than castella. Rather than widening the concept of castellum to any walled fortification, I think it is better to follow Glass's example of naming Fort Washington as Propugnaculum Washingtonium.--Rafaelgarcia 14:37, 24 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- After many thoughts back and forth, I think following Ainsworth in adopting propugnaculum for a modern fort is best, since it coincides with our one source of 18th century American Latinity, namely Franis Glass--Rafaelgarcia 00:36, 19 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- Vide Disputatio Formulae:Fortificationes--Rafaelgarcia 18:33, 18 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- Castra in the plural was a terminus technicus of the Roman Military meaning camp; besides the etymology with casa you indicated above, the term also being justified by the fact that their camps would usually be surrounded by bulwarks and fortifications of various kinds. This does not undo the fact that castrum (sing. and plural) specifically means all kinds of fort. For tent, the proper specific word I think is tentorium, although tabernaculum was often used in this sense by romans and is considered correct (I read that the term actually originates from the fact that small shelters and market shops were typically set up by putting up some boards (tabula); think farmer's markets).--Rafaelgarcia 15:36, 18 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- I see that Europe has numerous places whose first word is Castrum ; however (to judge by the articles already in Vicipaedia), the rest of the pattern differs from that in the United States, as the second European word tends to be the name of a place or a population, not the name of a person. Also, is it obvious that castra is the general term? After all, it basically means 'tents' ('the covering things'), so, as White's dictionary says, castra = "(Several soldiers' tents together; hence) A military camp, an encampment," which isn't quite what the military installation in question is. FWIW, Ainsworth's dictionary defines 'fort' as (the terms in this order): propugnaculum, munimentum, praesidium, castellum. IacobusAmor 15:20, 18 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- For sure, since arx, castellum, burgus, pugnaculum, and propugnaculum each are species of castra, if any one word should be chosen, castrum ought to be the word.--Rafaelgarcia 15:06, 18 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
- That could be, but we've long accepted Arx Vainensis for 'Fort Wayne' and Arx Vorthensis for 'Forth Worth'. It's a good question though, because the United States has dozens of cities and military installations whose names follow this pattern (having fort as their first word and the surname of a famous person as the rest of their name), so the term is consequential, and the pattern should be regularized. IacobusAmor 14:48, 18 Iulii 2009 (UTC)