Disputatio:Aberdonia

Devanha

What's the source for this name? It doesn't look Latin and can't be Greek. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:17, 31 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

Looks portuguese...--Ioshus ^(disp) 17:13, 31 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

I've looked into this now. Devanha is a misspelling. There was such a name in that district in classical times (Deouana in Ptolemy; Devonis or similar in the Ravenna Cosmography; probably Devana in Latin) but no one knows if it was precisely Aberdeen, and the Roman Britain people think not.

Therefore, our article about Aberdeen should be under the usual later Latin name, which is Aberdonia (see e.g. Hofmann). I could move it by copy-and-paste, but if an admin will kindly delete the current redirect page at Aberdonia I will move it in the proper way! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:38, 20 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

Aberdonia is red now. --Rolandus 13:51, 20 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Moved. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:53, 20 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)

The source is an Aberdonian (me) but it can be confirmed in Latin Names of Places in Great Britain and Ireland which is one of the VP recommended sources. The Latin name, Devan(h)a, is fairly well known in Aberdeen to the extent that there are Aberdonian streets which use it in their name, eg Devanha Gardens South. While it's fair enough to use mediaeval Latin coinages like Aberdonia, I thought that the idea was to write a classical Latin encyclopedia, and hence chose to use the classical name. Having said that, and speaking as an Aberdoniensis, I would prefer the article to be at Devanha but Aberdonia and a redirect from Devanha is okay by me.-- Derek Ross 20:21, 9 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your comment!

1. Devanha with an h is definitely a misspelling. -nh- does not occur in Latin and cannot be written in Greek; it is certain that none of the ancient sources for this name used the spelling Devanha. I have quoted the two sources above. There are lots of mistakes and misspellings on the Web!
2. If one wanted to convert that ancient place name, as recorded, to the form that would probably have been used in a classical Latin text, Devana is the best guess. The reason for not using Devana for Aberdeen is this. There are a fair few classical Greek/Latin names for places which can only be vaguely identified with a modern location -- and in some cases have been falsely identified (usually in early modern times, before archaeology got going seriously) with a modern location in their vague neighbourhood. Deouana/Devonis is one of these. No one can say (until an inscription is found) where Deouana/Devonis was. It was somewhere in the general region of Aberdeen; that's all we can say. The Ordnance survey map of Roman Britain identifies it not with Aberdeen but with one of the Roman forts in the hinterland (I think that's a bad guess, but the OS map is an authoritative source!) But for us to identify the name Devana with Aberdeen just makes it more difficult and confusing when the time comes to write an article about the actual ancient place name Deouana/Devonis/Devana and where it may have been.

There are several similar cases. It's possible to make a disambiguation title (Devana (Aberdonia) versus Devana (situs antiquitatis) or something like that) but it's simpler (I think) to choose a name, if we have one available, that is unambiguous and perfectly identical with the place we want to write about, even if it's post-classical. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:01, 10 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

If, as you say, the spelling Devanha is used in modern street names, that's rather interesting! It would be nice to know at what date the first street was so named. We might learn from that where and when the misspelling first occurred. But it doesn't make it Latin. Even local planning offices, and even sites like "Latin Names of Places in Great Britain and Ireland", are not 100% reliable! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:02, 10 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. That's a very reasonable approach to take. -- Theodoricus Promontorius 14:54, 10 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

-deen?

If -deen were a productive suffix, perhaps attestations of other toponyms will prove that English -deen = Latin -donia, and that could serve as an attestation of Aberdonia, or at least of the -donia part. IacobusAmor 13:46, 10 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Aberdeen was formed by the amalgamation of two communities, Aberdee and Aberdon, situated at the mouths of the two rivers, the Dee and the Don. Either this, or the local inhabitants tendency to change -oo- sounds into -ee- sounds (eg good -> gweed, moon --> meen, pool -> pweel) can "explain" why -donia should correspond to -deen. However, for the same reasons it is unlikely that there are any other toponyms containing -deen -- Theodoricus Promontorius 15:05, 10 Octobris 2007 (UTC)