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::::::Indeed Gens was used as a polite term for natio very often. Strictly speakig however, nationes were people outside the empire; gentes were people inside; and nationes naturally became gentes as they became integrated. So Germans, Spaniards, etc., as they became citizens were no longer considered nationes, at least not unless you wanted to insult them. Since within the empire, the gens was considered the general term for a distinct civilized people, there was "ius gentium" that governed the legal relations among non-citizens within the empire. IF a non citizen committed a crime against another noncitizen he was subject to the ius gentium, not the ius civile. Thus, today (by extension) we have "ius gentium"= international law, considered to be the law that binds all peoples not just within the empire but everywhere. --[[Usor:Rafaelgarcia|Rafaelgarcia]] 22:22, 26 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
:::::::I'm not sure that, for modern notions of statehood (nationhood), we shouldn't be sticking with ''civitas,'' as in this passage from Caesar's Gallic War: ''Tamen Senones, quae est '''civitas''' in primis firma et magnae inter Gallos auctoritatis'' 'The Senones, however, a '''state''' of prominent power and great authority among the Gauls' (5.54, Loeb translation, emphasis added). [[Usor:IacobusAmor|IacobusAmor]] 01:23, 29 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
::::::::I agree that in modern usage civitas should be used for state. There is no problem because the civitas/state/citizenship in the modern sense happens to be tied to the idea of a pagus or geographical administrative area. However, this linking to geographical area is not present in classical latin; and more importantly the idea of state is not the same as the idea of nation, even in english.
::::::::In english as in latin, nation does not primarily mean state. A nation (natio) in the primary sense is a group of people of common culture and heritage, independent of citizenship or geographical location. Although nations are typically named after location (galli, hispani, germani), the idea of natio is not tied to geography, certainly not in classical latin. Only in the sense of the modern "nation state" is a nation defined by borders that lie along cultural and language distributions; and this is what is meant by a the latin phrase status nationis: res publica statu nationis = a commonwealth (region and government) with the status of a nation.
::::::::As to my point about civitas not meaning state in the primary sense, if you read about the Roman law and how it evolved in the later stages of the empire, you will see what I mean. Classically, Civitas = citizenship and only secondarily is construed to mean state in the modern sense. The notion of civitas was not associated with a border, the way we associate it today with the concept of state or country. In a single given region, there could be more than one civitas of overlapping authority. Roman legal custom was to try a person for his crimes according to the civitas of the victim, not geographical location. Totally different laws applied to crimes committed in the same geographical area, depending on who committed the crime and to whom. This was true even inside the city of Rome. You would actually go before a different judge and different legal procedures and rights applied. All of which caused an incredible legal mess.
::::::::As a result of it being the Roman empire after all, however, Roman citizens were offered additional legal protections in the Ius civile, that a citizen could appeal to if convicted on certain charges in another court.
::::::::I tried to smmarize the evolution of the civitas notion on our page [[nationes mundi]] page, although I haven't provided references so I am to blame. After the empire, and towards the middle ages as feudalism died, the meaning of natio and civitas became more tied to geography and specific borders. But even as late as Hobbes, you can see the original Roman notion of civitas in mind. As kings gained in power over local lords, nation states (countries with the state of being considered a nation =the status nationis) came about, along side some countries that merely had status civitatis, along side others that had status imperii.--[[Usor:Rafaelgarcia|Rafaelgarcia]] 02:30, 29 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
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