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::The modern concept of nation as a state came from the nationalist movement in the 17 and 18 century, which saw the redrawing of boundaries according to national characteristics: This same movement saw the demise of latin as an international language, in favor of "national languages". In response, there was a classification of res publicae according to their status: status civitatis (composed of many nations or a subset of a nation like the Vatican); status nationis (when a state was composed of a single cultural group or nation); status imperii (composed of many nations); status gentis (state of a people (literally clan) which had never sought or had had an independent state of their own)...--[[Usor:Rafaelgarcia|Rafaelgarcia]] 18:32, 26 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
:::De: "the nationalist movement in the 17 and 18 century, which saw the redrawing of boundaries according to national characteristics"—yet it can fairly be argued that such a movement was at its heart a ''racist'' movement, its "nation" being the political creation of a "folk," a homogeneous body of people related by birth (ex ''natio'' 'a being born'). It led to a Germany (and in varying degrees to other European entities) in which Jews, for example, were unwelcome because they were born apart, outside the nation, as it were. ¶ A quick reading of the entry on ''nation'' in the OED suggests that the idea that a nation is not fairly close in sense to that of a race (a people) must be a quite recent development, perhaps (one speculates) influenced by the growth of "nations" of immigrants from all over, as seen especially in the Americas, Australia, New Zealand, etc. ¶ The usual translation of Haggai 2:7 (2:8) is something like "And I will shake all '''nations,''' so that the treasures of all '''nations''' shall come in" (RSV). The Vulgate version of that is "Et movebo omnes '''gentes,''' et veniet Desideratus cunctis '''gentibus.'''" ¶ Cassell's says to translate the political senses of English 'nation' as ''civitas'' when it means 'body of citizens' and ''respublica'' when it means 'state', leaving for other senses ''populus, gens'' ("people, stock"), and ''natio'' ("tribe, not highly civilized"). How do the Six Nations fit in here? If they're ''Sex Nationes,'' will Cicero's & Jerome's shades think less of them than if they're ''Sex Civitates'' or ''Sex Respublicae'' ? [[Usor:IacobusAmor|IacobusAmor]] 19:32, 26 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
::::If you look at the etymology gens is as racial a concept as natio, since both are centered on pedigree: gens (~genus)=tribe/clan; natio="a race of people, nation, people". So indeed, nationalism is in many respects a racist idea. Nationalism is using religious, historical, and cultural differences to justify the drawing of national boundaries, the premise being that cultural differences in religion, language and culture determine what system of government and laws ought to apply.
::::The Jews are a natio, according to the latin concept of natio, since they were once an independent republic. During the 1930's, accoriding to late latin politcal terminology, they would have been classed as a natio sine statu (stateless nation).
::::However, my point pertained to the advice given by Casell's and others that "natio" should not be taken to translate nation because it is a derogatory term. The derogatory nature is based on the bigoted sentiments of Cicero and other upper class classical Romans; and thus ought to be dismissed: Hispania, Gallia, et Britannia are among those nationes thought so lowly of, but are obviously what we call nations today.
::::Indeed yes, Cicero would think "less" of "sex nationes" (six nations/tribes from outside the empire) versus "sex gentes" (six clans/races from within the empire), "sex civitates" (six citizenships; he would have trouble understanding this as "six states"), and sex res publicas ( six types or generations of government; again would have trouble understanding this since there was only one republic at a time). But what he or Caesar "felt" about them status-wise is beside the point. The point is what they are '''existentially'''.--[[Usor:Rafaelgarcia|Rafaelgarcia]] 20:08, 26 Iulii 2009 (UTC)
Revertere ad "Tribunal internationale Hagense".