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that's very helpful. thanks!
:But that is the ''modern'' Greek alphabet there. We would need one for the classical alphabet too. --[[User:Xaverius|<
==All letters available in Unicode==
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#Haec litterae nullo tempore, unam aliam sequentes, omnes in alphabeto fuerunt;
#Series harum litterarum rite ordinatarum minime exstat.
:Igitur removi.
==Scho?==
It seems highly unlikely that the ʃ sound is transliterated as sch in latin. How do you go from ʃ to sch? Even just plain s would be closer sounding. Is there a source for this or is it made up?--[[Usor:Rafaelgarcia|Rafaelgarcia]] 18:20, 23 Iunii 2008 (UTC)
:According to [[en:sho (letter)|en:wiki]], the letter was used only in Bactrian (a long-extinct Iranian language, deciphered in 1957, which few mortals currently know). I quote: "The name "sho" is modern; its Bactrian name is unknown, as is its order in the Bactrian alphabet." I quote further from the paper by Michael Everson and Nicholas Sims-Williams, which is linked on that English page: "No traditional name is attested for this letter, but because of its similarity to RHO, the name SHO has been suggested here." This means, I would say, that ''sho'' is a fantasy-name, created by those two multitypographers purely for the reason that the Unicode people demand a name as well as a shape before they will consider new proposals for inclusion of characters in Unicode. It has nothing to do with God, Ms Emmerich, Adamic or Bactrian, and certainly nothing to do with Greek.
::So its part of the bactrian alphabet and not the greek one.--[[Usor:Rafaelgarcia|Rafaelgarcia]] 20:14, 23 Iunii 2008 (UTC)
::So indeed it has nothing to do with Greek.--[[Usor:Rafaelgarcia|Rafaelgarcia]] 20:16, 23 Iunii 2008 (UTC)
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:::The following reference [http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/unicode/unicode.html] was given by our anonymous editor and is really useful on variant Greek letters. I don't see a mention of "sho" there, but maybe I just failed to find it as yet.
:::You failed because you didn't used "search only whole words". If you would try this method, you would find all eight letters there. [[Specialis:Conlationes/74.50.97.246|74.50.97.246]] 16:28, 15 Februarii 2010 (UTC)
:::I don't think there is a strong reason for excluding the variants from this page unless and until we have a better page for them. But it's dishonest to imply that letters were used for Greek when they weren't: our editors must try to guard against this.
::::Where I was unable to confirm the name of one of the odd letters in early or classical Greek, I've asked for a citation; where I'm sure that there was no name, I've deleted it. In either case, a real citation (of an ancient Greek text) is what's needed.
:::::I replaced analogical dead external link set with analogical life external link set in main article to provide broadest ever centralized reference set available known to me. [[Specialis:Conlationes/83.30.143.131|83.30.143.131]] 14:27, 14 Februarii 2010 (UTC)
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This set covers all existing Greek characters in both uppercase and lowercase forms along with all their codepoints. [[Specialis:Conlationes/209.104.195.64|209.104.195.64]] 15:12, 14 Februarii 2010 (UTC)
:Thanks. Anyone who finds these links useful could label them in Latin and add them to the page, but they would (I think) be appropriate rather on the pages about the individual characters. On this page links about the whole alphabet are more suitable.
:I labeled these links in Latin and added them to all eight individual articles according to your classification of them done directly above. [[Specialis:Conlationes/67.214.139.35|67.214.139.35]] 19:36, 14 Februarii 2010 (UTC)
::So why was he blocked for adding them? [[Usor:Pantocrator|Pantocrator]] 15:18, 14 Februarii 2010 (UTC)
:::She's an obsessive who has been a minor nuisance on many Wikipedias for many years. Her aim is to get sho and san adopted as part of the Greek alphabet for religious reasons (see also [[Lingua Adamica]] on this subject). In my view the best solution, for her own good, is to persuade her to use other sites, not wikipedia, for her propaganda. I can point you to earlier discussions if you're really interested.
:::The false information was not the links (they are repetitive, semi-relevant and lack Latin labels, but not false). The false information was the claim that she is reverting "slashing vandalism".
::::Note that Opoudjis main page http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/unicode/unicode.html includes all links to all eight Opoudjis sub pages listed above. [[Specialis:Conlationes/209.104.195.64|209.104.195.64]] 15:48, 14 Februarii 2010 (UTC)
:::::That seems much more useful as a link.
:::::For the present I've protected the eight pages on odd Greek/Bactrian letters as they are under attack again. While they remain protected, only magistratus can follow my well-meant advice above! Sorry about this. If anyone does want to add these links to any such page, ask here and a magistratus will no doubt help.
::::::I request that magistratus will add these links to all eight letters. Additionally I list all alphabetic SVGs for your convenience:
::::::*[[Image:Digamma uc lc.svg|100px]]
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::::::I request adding all above SVGs to all eight articles. [[Specialis:Conlationes/64.20.55.38|64.20.55.38]] 06:45, 15 Februarii 2010 (UTC)
:::::::I'm working on your request. For the so-called "stigma" I have preferred to adopt images used in the German Wikipedia, because the one you give here is misleading. It is a cursive ligature and had no uppercase form, so far as I know.
::::::::There is a reliable source for upper- and lowercase stigma: they are both in Unicode (U+03DB is the small stigma, and U+03DA is the capital). Opoudjis states they were present in earlier encodings as well; but apparently casing stigmas are no longer something common, if they ever were. —[[Usor:Mycēs|Mucius Tever]] 04:32, 16 Februarii 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::I am honestly doubtful whether the fact that Evershed or somebody has persuaded Unicode to encode an uppercase form of the st ligature is notable, given that an uppercase form was never used (so far as I know) and can hardly have a use in the future. Still, since you both favour it, I'll add the illustration to the page!
::::::::::Well, there's nothing to say they were never used; Opoudjis ''does'' believe it was a mistake to encode, but not because it was unused; merely because it's a ligature, which should be outside the scope of Unicode. (Clearly the existence in prior encodings must have carried some weight there.) At any rate, there's nothing to say it was never used; it's the number six, for crying out loud! :) so don't just take my word for it. I don't have the best Greek google-fu, but here's at least one example I found with a stigma in a capital-letters context: [http://books.google.com/books?id=vPBEAAAAQAAJ&dq=%22%CE%BA%CE%B5%CF%86%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%B9%CE%BF%20%CE%95%22&lr=&as_brr=3&pg=PA517#v=onepage&q=%22%CE%BA%CE%B5%CF%86%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%B9%CE%BF%20%CE%95%22&f=false] — Notice the previous chapter is ΚΕΦΑΛΑΙΟΝ Ε. So either that is a capital stigma in the subsequent chapter heading, or it isn't. It does look kind of small, but that might be an issue with the typographer lacking the second case, similar to [http://books.google.com/books?id=-gdTgIW-7IMC&lpg=PA171&dq=%22greek%20numerals%22&lr=&pg=PA173#v=onepage&q=%22greek%20numerals%22&f=false this example] where, although they have a capital and a lower-case stigma, the typographer seems to have lacked the lower-case sampi, and qoppa altogether. (The poorly-outfitted typography hypothesis seems to be borne out by the header on the subsequent page, where not only is the stigma still small in stature, it's ''the same size'' as it is in the chapter heading—even though the rest of the letters are considerably larger.) Actually, [http://books.google.com/books?id=8a7UAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22%CE%BA%CE%B5%CF%86%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%B9%CE%BF%CE%BD%20%CF%82%22&lr=&as_brr=3&pg=RA3-PA1224#v=onepage&q=%22%CE%BA%CE%B5%CF%86%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%B9%CE%BF%CE%BD%20%CF%82%22&f=false here] is an even better example, with an unambiguously capital stigma. —[[Usor:Mycēs|Mucius Tever]] 23:52, 16 Februarii 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::Marvellous. I had never seen one in many years of glancing at old Greek texts, but evidently, at the latest, a true uppercase version of the st ligature was created for the Abbé Migne. What a great man! I happily withdraw the suggestion that it was a Unicode invention :)
:::::::::::[Later:] I've added this to the page. If you ever come across an earlier unambiguously uppercase version of the st ligature, let's note it! But my observations have been in general the same as yours, that printers did not have it. Your interpretation (poorly-outfitted typography) is too Platonic for me. I would say rather that the outfit was perfect, and an uppercase ligature was not invented because it had no reason to exist: in uppercase Greek one did not use ligatures. By Migne's time things looked different, because ligatures even in lowercase text were no longer used, and the numeral system stood on its own.
::::::::::::Re: 'in uppercase Greek one did not use ligatures'. How then did they write the Greek numeral 6 in uppercase Greek? Was it dissolved into sigma-tau even in medieval times, or is that a modern invention? For, to be sure, 'stigma' as a numeral did not derive from the ligature of sigma and tau, but from the obsolete letter 'digamma' which later converged with 'stigma', and therefore one might well argue that as a ''numeral'' 'stigma' cannot be dissolved into 'sigma' and 'tau'. --[[Usor:Fabullus|Fabullus]] 11:08, 17 Februarii 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::I'm not a manuscript person, and I don't know to what extent the numerals were ever ''written'' in an identifiable uppercase form. I only knew, and Myces has demonstrated it with some early examples above, that when numerals were ''printed'' in uppercase in Greek text, the printer used a lowercase "stigma" for number 6.
:::::::For the letter J (for which Jot is the German name) I have preferred an image giving both uppercase and lowercase forms.
:::::::The various incarnations of [[Eta]] are dealt with at that page, but the image you supply will be more use when we have the [[Spiritus asper]] page. Watch this space.
::::::::Please don't forget to add eight above external links like "http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/unicode/" requested above. [[Specialis:Conlationes/91.204.160.75|91.204.160.75]] 19:54, 15 Februarii 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::I think I've done them all now.
Late response to the questions about uppercase stigma etc. above: With the numeral signs ϛ,ϟ,ϡ, the general practice in modern print is that you simply use the same glyph both in an uppercase and lowercase context, as Andrew rightly says; that's in fact the practice followed in the Migne example linked to above (his uppercase stigma is simply the same as the lowercase, as even more clearly seen at the top of p.518). Some typesetters did have distinct uppercase forms in the 19th century, but they seem to have been quite rare. A few examples are given at [[:en:Digamma]]. An interesting question is whether typesetters who had a capital numeric stigma ever also used it for typesetting textual "Στ" in a mixed-case context. This seems to have been even rarer; I have seen one curious example of "Στίχος" abbreviated as "Ϛίχ." though. [[Usor:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Future Perfect at Sunrise]] 07:10, 11 Octobris 2011 (UTC)
== Edit of 25 June ==
I've now tidied up the tables the way I think they should be. Those who know about the Greek alphabet are welcome to correct/improve them!
== De antiquissima inscriptione Graeca Gabiis inventa ==
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== Pronuntiatio linguae hodiernae: [e̞] etc. ==
Quid nobis dicit hoc ̞ parvum ad litteris e et o adnexum?
:Vocalem [[:en:Mid vowel|mediam]], i.e. inter [e] "mediam clausam" et [ɛ] "mediam apertam" sitam.
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I recommend changing all three to the same word.
[[Usor:Iago4096|Iago4096]] 21:04, 10 Octobris 2010 (UTC)
:Thanks, good suggestion.
== de annis ==
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