Disputatio Categoriae:Homines per civitates digesti

Homines Turciae et sim.

Disputatio huc mota est a Disputatio Usoris:Andrew Dalby

Regarding phrases of the structure Homines Turciae:—my impression is that, for proper names like this, Latin prefers an adjective where English prefers a prepositional phrase (with of). Certainly it's the populus Romanus, never the populus Romae. So for this category, wouldn't the better pattern be Homines Turcenses and Homines Hispanienses (or Hispani) and so on? IacobusAmor 12:54, 13 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)

"Populus Romanus" isn't comparable; the requirement (I guess) was for a phrase that meant not "Turkish people" but "people from Turkey". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:12, 13 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)

Well, but isn't that a distinction without a difference? Surely populus Turciae would be 'Turkey's people', the people belonging to Turkey, the people of Turkey. ¶ Since Latin freely substantivizes adjectives, wouldn't a better solution be Categoria:Turcenses (for Turks) and Categoria:Hispani (for Spaniards) and so on? And that amounts to the same thing as Categoria:Homines Turcenses and so on. IacobusAmor 14:28, 13 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)

It's a distinction with a difference. I am a person from France. I am not a French person. To me, it doesn't matter; but a category dealing with where someone lives is easy to apply without ambiguity or offence. One dealing with ethnic/cultural affiliation may be highly contentious. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:03, 13 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)

In my idiolect, and I suspect in that of most Americans, to say you're "from France" implies you were born there, or spent your main formative years there, or identify as one of the people there. The first of these possibilites is what we Americans heard the Coneheads meaning when they said they were "from France": they were obviously in America, but they were from France; that they were of thoroughly French stock was the point of the joke. In reality, one gathers, you're merely "in France." If so and you're English, you could go in Categoria:Homines Anglici. If you've moved your identity to France and become a Frenchman, then you'd be in Categoria:Homines Francici. Presumably, for the same reasons, Vicipaedia should put T. S. Eliot in a category like Categoria:Homines Anglici and W. H. Auden in a category like Categoria:Homines Americani. ¶ I see, however, that Vicipaedia does it differently with Auden (it doesn't have Eliot): it categorizes Auden among "England's poets" and "England's writers." Auden used to say, when asked which nationality he preferred, for the questioner to go ask Eliot, and then Auden would be the other. Since Auden served (as a major) in the U.S. Army, he could certainly at that time have been considered an American poet and an American writer! ¶ For migrants, an alternative would be a twofold categorization: (1) as above, plus (2) Categoria:Homines in X nati, where X in the ablative is the name of the country, region, island, etc. (except where in can be omitted and a locative can suffice). IacobusAmor 17:40, 13 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)

I know we're off the topic (heading) here but anyways, I think I'm with Iacobus re "Turciae" etc (except that I'd prefer "Homines Turcici"), and the argument pertains to the whole Categoria:Homines secundum terram page. (I'm pretending "terra" is unproblematic here.) Has there ever been discussion about how to go about in this matter? If not, I can't but admire such degree of self-confidence. I'd have been better, if the author had followed the Russian model "Персоналии:Турция" or "Homines: Turcia". --Neander 00:07, 14 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)

I have to admit I don't like Homines Turciae either, much as I sympathise with the difficulty of not using Turcici or Turci (what about ethnic Curds, Armenians, Greeks; Turks in Germany). I think Neander's proposal could offer a way out (Homines: Turcia or rather Turcia: Homines). Another option might be Incolae Turciae. Let's hope for the emergence of a Deus ex roboto for renaming categories then, shall we. Maybe this discussion should be moved somewhere else?--Ceylon 06:55, 14 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)

Yes, incolae is a good thought. Homines has been over-used on Vicipaedia for longer than our virtual lifetimes. I quite agree with moving the discussion! I am not involved with the people-from-countries categories; it's just that, as a former librarian and classifier, I urge the usefulness of them and the need to avoid confusing them with ethnic labels. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:48, 14 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)

One more thing: Homines secundum terram really hurts. Each single one of these three words is wrong for different reasons. I'd suggest Nationes or Incolae singularum civitatium ... just about anything would be better than the present title. --Ceylon 13:34, 14 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)

I have reduced the pain a little by asking UVBot to move this category (thanks, UV!) I am not claiming the current Categoria:Homines secundum civitates digesti is ideal, just that it is slightly better. It still begins with Vicipaedia's favourite word, Homines, as do most of its subcategories. A general solution to the "people-by-nationality" problem is still wanted. Perhaps Ceylon's Incolae singularum civitat(i)um (proposed just above) will provide it. Should the subcategories be called Incolae Turciae, Incolae Civitatum Foederatarum, etc.? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:13, 12 Octobris 2008 (UTC)

Proposed change of category names

Looking at the subcategories on this page, it is all too clear that we have been inconsistent! I think that it is desirable to establish a clear pattern, (a) so that we know what form to use when we next want to create a people-by-country category, (b) so that the bigger, future Vicipaedia will have a clear base to build on.

I find Ceylon's suggestion of Incolae ..., above, the simplest solution. I would like to apply that pattern (with the indispensable help of UVbot) to all the subcategories currently on this page: so that Categoria:Britanni becames Categoria:Incolae Britanniae, Categoria:Homines Americani becomes Categoria:Incolae Civitatum Foederatarum, and so on.

These are, and I think they should remain, categories "by residence". (Many people, who have migrated, are in more than one category.) Once this change has been made, it does not preclude a future subdivision by states, cities or whatever; nor does it have anything to do with possible ethnic categories which someone might some day want to apply. It's just, simply, country of residence.

Does anyone object if we start re-naming these categories according to the Incolae ... pattern? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:45, 8 Decembris 2008 (UTC)