Disputatio:Gloria in excelsis

Gloria non est hymnus

Gloria non est hymnus, sed magna doxologia. For that matter, several other items listed here aren't hymns either, using a strict definition of 'hymn'. IacobusAmor 18:10, 26 Februarii 2008 (UTC)

according to en:Great Doxology"The Great Doxology is an ancient hymn of praise to the Trinity which is chanted or read daily in the Eastern Orthodox and Greek-Catholic Churches." and according to es:Gloria in excelsis:"Gloria in excelsis, himno litúrgico, llamado también doxología mayor, habitualmente cantado en forma silábica o semi-silábica, que forma parte de las piezas obligatorias del Ordinario de la Misa, tanto en las Liturgias católicas como ortodoxas." ? --Rafaelgarcia 19:21, 26 Februarii 2008 (UTC)

I found the following discussion here:http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07595a.htm

The most directly relavent section is the following:The Latin word hymnus is unknown in the pre-Christian literature. For it the word carmen is used by the classic authors, so that hymnus is specifically a Christian derivative from the Greek, like so many other expressions of the liturgy. In the ancient Christian writers hymnus is generally paraphrased as "laus Dei cum cantu" (Rufinus, "in Ps. lxxii") or as "hymnus specialiter Deo dictus" (Ambrose, "De Off.", I, xlv). The most celebrated definition is that of Saint Augustine. Commenting on Psalm 148 he says: "Know ye what a hymn is? It is a song with praise of God [cantus est cum laude Dei]. If thou praisest God and singest not, thou utterest no hymn, if thou singest and praisest not God but another thing, thou utterest no hymn. A hymn then containeth these three things, song [cantus] and praise [cum laude] and that praise of God [Dei]." The expression "praise of God" must not however be taken so literally as to exclude the praise of his saints. Saint Augustine himself says in the explanation of the same psalm, verse 14: "hymnus omnibus sanctis eius"; "What then meaneth this 'A hymn to all His saints'? Let His saints be offered a hymn." God is really praised in His saints and in all His works, and therefore a "praise of the saints" is also a "praise of God".

--Rafaelgarcia 19:27, 26 Februarii 2008 (UTC)

As I wrote before your redirect abolished the text I was adding, a hymn (general) isn't a hymn (special). If you look in the index to the Liber Usualis, you won't find the Gloria in excelsis listed among the hymns. That's because it's unique unto itself as the Greater Doxology. Certain office hours have a spot where a hymn may or must be sung, and the Gloria in excelsis is not among the items eligible to be sung there. So yes, it's a kind of hymn (in general), but no, it's not a hymn (specifically). Is this clear now? IacobusAmor 19:37, 26 Februarii 2008 (UTC)

And you do realize how impossibly large this category is, right? Of Protestant hymns alone, at least 10,000 must have been published, and in all of Christianity, the number could approach 100,000. So rather than adding doxologies, graduals, tracts, and so on into one grab-bag categoria, better to separate them out now, at the start. IacobusAmor 19:42, 26 Februarii 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about the unintended effect of the redirect. I guess not being a religious man, I wasn't aware of that particular difference. Couldn't the Magna Doxologia be organized as a subcategory of hymnus?--Rafaelgarcia 20:55, 26 Februarii 2008 (UTC)

Why make matters worse? For Gregorian chants alone, there should be independent categories for: introits, graduals, alleluia verses, sequences, tracts, canticles, responsories, offertories, communions, antiphons, hymns, psalms, responsories, not to mention the ordinary texts of the mass (one of which is the Gloria in excelsis), the propers, and so on. If each one rates an article (as indeed some hymns already have), that's several thousand articles right there. And then you'll want to add in maybe 10,000 Protestant hymns, zillions of Greek/Russian Orthodox items, and so on. And that's just for Christianity. It's an unbelievable urceus vermium. IacobusAmor 21:32, 26 Februarii 2008 (UTC)